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	Comments on: Tibbs Presents A Real Issue	</title>
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	<description>A different slant on the news.</description>
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		<title>
		By: CYCLOPS		</title>
		<link>https://boiseguardian.com/2007/09/18/tibbs-presents-a-real-issue/#comment-6360</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[CYCLOPS]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 01:28:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://boiseguardian.com/wp/?p=746#comment-6360</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Zonker, I hate to be the bearer of bad news but, HAVE YOU LOOKED AT THE FOOTHILLS LATELY? I was up there tonight and there are houses everywhere! I have a feeling that horse you want to ride has already left the barn. Did you know that the city has already tied up over 10,000 acres of the foothills? And they still have over half of the original 10 million left to acquire yet more land?
Tibbs has taken repeated hits from the libs about pandering to the Southwest. What do you think Bieter is doing with the foothills? &quot; There will be no development of the foothills as long as I am mayor!&quot; Do you honestly think he means that? Look at just how many houses that have been built up there in the last 4 years and go ask your buddy Dave WHY? Tibbs&#039; position is really quite consistant and one of common sense. Even though there is the question of private property rights, any proposed development will have to pass very strict Planning and Zoning regulations that will be designed to preserve the open feeling that we enjoy. Bieter would have you believe that Tibbs would have the entire foothills developed with a density of 12 houses per acre but that is just simply not the case. Just ask yourself the question, are the foothills in better shape today than they were 4 years ago? And if not , why not, and whose to blame?
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Zonker, I hate to be the bearer of bad news but, HAVE YOU LOOKED AT THE FOOTHILLS LATELY? I was up there tonight and there are houses everywhere! I have a feeling that horse you want to ride has already left the barn. Did you know that the city has already tied up over 10,000 acres of the foothills? And they still have over half of the original 10 million left to acquire yet more land?<br />
Tibbs has taken repeated hits from the libs about pandering to the Southwest. What do you think Bieter is doing with the foothills? &#8221; There will be no development of the foothills as long as I am mayor!&#8221; Do you honestly think he means that? Look at just how many houses that have been built up there in the last 4 years and go ask your buddy Dave WHY? Tibbs&#8217; position is really quite consistant and one of common sense. Even though there is the question of private property rights, any proposed development will have to pass very strict Planning and Zoning regulations that will be designed to preserve the open feeling that we enjoy. Bieter would have you believe that Tibbs would have the entire foothills developed with a density of 12 houses per acre but that is just simply not the case. Just ask yourself the question, are the foothills in better shape today than they were 4 years ago? And if not , why not, and whose to blame?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Zonker		</title>
		<link>https://boiseguardian.com/2007/09/18/tibbs-presents-a-real-issue/#comment-6359</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zonker]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Sep 2007 17:48:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://boiseguardian.com/wp/?p=746#comment-6359</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Tibbs&#039; own website fails to offer any specifics on anything - including development. And the Foothills position is (per below) a &#039;non-answer&#039;. But I have a neighbor who supports him because he is willing to endorse Foothills development. And I point out Kevin Richert&#039;s July 19 piece in the Statesman - &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.idahostatesman.com/richert/story/111251.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.idahostatesman.com/richert/story/111251.html&lt;/a&gt;

&quot;City Council member Jim Tibbs whiffed on the question [at the public debate that week]. He said the Foothills are a gem that should be preserved as much as possible through partnerships, but pointed out that much of the Foothills remains private property. &quot;It doesn&#039;t belong to city government.&quot; Tibbs, running against Bieter this fall, never said whether he&#039;d support continued Foothills development — one of a passel of Tibbs non-answers Wednesday.

To note Kevin further, &quot;Bieter will gladly talk Foothills to anyone who&#039;ll listen,&quot; because his position is clear.

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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tibbs&#8217; own website fails to offer any specifics on anything &#8211; including development. And the Foothills position is (per below) a &#8216;non-answer&#8217;. But I have a neighbor who supports him because he is willing to endorse Foothills development. And I point out Kevin Richert&#8217;s July 19 piece in the Statesman &#8211; <a href="http://www.idahostatesman.com/richert/story/111251.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.idahostatesman.com/richert/story/111251.html</a></p>
<p>&#8220;City Council member Jim Tibbs whiffed on the question [at the public debate that week]. He said the Foothills are a gem that should be preserved as much as possible through partnerships, but pointed out that much of the Foothills remains private property. &#8220;It doesn&#8217;t belong to city government.&#8221; Tibbs, running against Bieter this fall, never said whether he&#8217;d support continued Foothills development — one of a passel of Tibbs non-answers Wednesday.</p>
<p>To note Kevin further, &#8220;Bieter will gladly talk Foothills to anyone who&#8217;ll listen,&#8221; because his position is clear.</p>
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		<title>
		By: CYCLOPS		</title>
		<link>https://boiseguardian.com/2007/09/18/tibbs-presents-a-real-issue/#comment-6358</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[CYCLOPS]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Sep 2007 12:52:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://boiseguardian.com/wp/?p=746#comment-6358</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Well Zonker, just what is Tibbs&#039; stand on the foothills? Inquiring minds, and all that, would like to know. While your at it, please explain just how addressing the situation with a significant number of citizens is pandering. Or maybe should Tibbs assume the same stance as our current mayor. You know, the position &quot; we got their tax monies, now we can just pretend they don&#039;t exist&quot;.
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well Zonker, just what is Tibbs&#8217; stand on the foothills? Inquiring minds, and all that, would like to know. While your at it, please explain just how addressing the situation with a significant number of citizens is pandering. Or maybe should Tibbs assume the same stance as our current mayor. You know, the position &#8221; we got their tax monies, now we can just pretend they don&#8217;t exist&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Zonker		</title>
		<link>https://boiseguardian.com/2007/09/18/tibbs-presents-a-real-issue/#comment-6357</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zonker]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Sep 2007 01:28:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://boiseguardian.com/wp/?p=746#comment-6357</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Cyclops just proved that Tibbs is in fact pandering -- to those who feel burned from earlier annexation and who are now within the city. And let&#039;s not forget the orginal Guardian post above that noted SW Boise residents impacted by outward growth. This is to whom Tibbs is specifically playing. It is also an effort to temper perceptions that Tibbs is pro-growth (given his Foothills development stand) and inch toward the center. To think otherwise during a political campaign is folly. And while the denizens of the Foothills can&#039;t vote, plenty of Boiseans who live nearby and who recreate there year round certainly do. And will.
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cyclops just proved that Tibbs is in fact pandering &#8212; to those who feel burned from earlier annexation and who are now within the city. And let&#8217;s not forget the orginal Guardian post above that noted SW Boise residents impacted by outward growth. This is to whom Tibbs is specifically playing. It is also an effort to temper perceptions that Tibbs is pro-growth (given his Foothills development stand) and inch toward the center. To think otherwise during a political campaign is folly. And while the denizens of the Foothills can&#8217;t vote, plenty of Boiseans who live nearby and who recreate there year round certainly do. And will.</p>
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		<title>
		By: CYCLOPS		</title>
		<link>https://boiseguardian.com/2007/09/18/tibbs-presents-a-real-issue/#comment-6356</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[CYCLOPS]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Sep 2007 11:37:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://boiseguardian.com/wp/?p=746#comment-6356</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Sara, you forget two portions of the equation.
One, Jim Tibbs is not &quot;pandering&quot; to anyone. He has always held the personal belief that forced annexation is wrong.

Second, there are a substantial portion of the population that still feel they were treated badly by city government during the last few rounds of forced annexation. They are still angry at the way they were ignored by &quot;team Dave&quot;.

The bottom line here is the cynical attitude that a candidate MUST be pandering to someone each time they make their views known. I find it refreshing that someone seeking office, Jim Tibbs, will actually tell the people how he feels about the issues we face. I would ask that you think about your own position that if Tibbs were &quot;pandering&quot;, why would he choose to &quot;pander&quot; to people who can&#039;t vote? Kind of shoots your position down maybe?
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sara, you forget two portions of the equation.<br />
One, Jim Tibbs is not &#8220;pandering&#8221; to anyone. He has always held the personal belief that forced annexation is wrong.</p>
<p>Second, there are a substantial portion of the population that still feel they were treated badly by city government during the last few rounds of forced annexation. They are still angry at the way they were ignored by &#8220;team Dave&#8221;.</p>
<p>The bottom line here is the cynical attitude that a candidate MUST be pandering to someone each time they make their views known. I find it refreshing that someone seeking office, Jim Tibbs, will actually tell the people how he feels about the issues we face. I would ask that you think about your own position that if Tibbs were &#8220;pandering&#8221;, why would he choose to &#8220;pander&#8221; to people who can&#8217;t vote? Kind of shoots your position down maybe?</p>
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		<title>
		By: sara		</title>
		<link>https://boiseguardian.com/2007/09/18/tibbs-presents-a-real-issue/#comment-6355</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[sara]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 23:37:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://boiseguardian.com/wp/?p=746#comment-6355</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Cyclops, if Tibbs is going to say no to &quot;forced&quot; annexation, only those who would not be &quot;forcibly&quot; annexed are people who are not currently city residents.  Hence, his issue panders to NON voters.
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cyclops, if Tibbs is going to say no to &#8220;forced&#8221; annexation, only those who would not be &#8220;forcibly&#8221; annexed are people who are not currently city residents.  Hence, his issue panders to NON voters.</p>
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		<title>
		By: curious george		</title>
		<link>https://boiseguardian.com/2007/09/18/tibbs-presents-a-real-issue/#comment-6354</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[curious george]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 20:19:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://boiseguardian.com/wp/?p=746#comment-6354</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Annexation not only means becoming subject to municipal taxation &amp; getting municipal services, but also becoming subject to municipal rules &amp; regs.

It&#039;s not just about sewer and taxes.

An Area of City Impact is granted by a county to a city through a public participatory process - it&#039;s a &quot;heads up&quot; to those citizens who reside in the effected area (whether they own land in the area or not) that they will eventually become citizens of that community. These non-owner residents even qualify to serve on the city&#039;s Planning &amp; Zoning Commission.

When the annexation law was changed, a split was institutionalized between the Haves (those citizens who own land) and the Have Nots (those citizens who do not). The owner of an apartment complex outside of a city&#039;s Area of City Impact could consent to annexation - subjugating all the residents in the apartment building (qualified electors, every one) to a set of municipal laws that they will have been denied an opportunity to craft. How is it legal, or proper, or moral, to accept a law that grants a single un-elected individual (the landowner) the power to substantially change so many people&#039;s lives.

This violates the Equal Protections clause, and runs counter to any number of Idaho AG Opinions and court cases that reaffirm the authority of Article I, Section 2 of the Idaho Constitution. To wit:

POLITICAL POWER INHERENT IN THE PEOPLE. All political power is inherent in the people. Government is instituted for their equal protection and benefit, and they have the right to alter, reform or abolish the same whenever they may deem it necessary; and no special privileges or immunities shall ever be granted that may not be altered, revoked, or repealed by the legislature.

In other words, just because a person owns land they do not have any special right to usurp the rights of other citizens to participate in their representative government. When the &quot;owner consent&quot; loophole (Category A Annexation) is used to annex outside of a pre-agreed Area of City Impact, then the citizens who may live on that land (but who do not own it) will have been denied their legal right to participate in the discussions regarding their potential subjugation to municipal rule.

By closing that loophole (or by a city council adopting a policy that it will never utilize that loophole), real growth management can occur. Without such a commitment, we&#039;ll get the Eagle, Star, and Kuna debacle all over the county - which is nothing more than run away, unregulated growth.

]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Annexation not only means becoming subject to municipal taxation &#038; getting municipal services, but also becoming subject to municipal rules &#038; regs.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not just about sewer and taxes.</p>
<p>An Area of City Impact is granted by a county to a city through a public participatory process &#8211; it&#8217;s a &#8220;heads up&#8221; to those citizens who reside in the effected area (whether they own land in the area or not) that they will eventually become citizens of that community. These non-owner residents even qualify to serve on the city&#8217;s Planning &#038; Zoning Commission.</p>
<p>When the annexation law was changed, a split was institutionalized between the Haves (those citizens who own land) and the Have Nots (those citizens who do not). The owner of an apartment complex outside of a city&#8217;s Area of City Impact could consent to annexation &#8211; subjugating all the residents in the apartment building (qualified electors, every one) to a set of municipal laws that they will have been denied an opportunity to craft. How is it legal, or proper, or moral, to accept a law that grants a single un-elected individual (the landowner) the power to substantially change so many people&#8217;s lives.</p>
<p>This violates the Equal Protections clause, and runs counter to any number of Idaho AG Opinions and court cases that reaffirm the authority of Article I, Section 2 of the Idaho Constitution. To wit:</p>
<p>POLITICAL POWER INHERENT IN THE PEOPLE. All political power is inherent in the people. Government is instituted for their equal protection and benefit, and they have the right to alter, reform or abolish the same whenever they may deem it necessary; and no special privileges or immunities shall ever be granted that may not be altered, revoked, or repealed by the legislature.</p>
<p>In other words, just because a person owns land they do not have any special right to usurp the rights of other citizens to participate in their representative government. When the &#8220;owner consent&#8221; loophole (Category A Annexation) is used to annex outside of a pre-agreed Area of City Impact, then the citizens who may live on that land (but who do not own it) will have been denied their legal right to participate in the discussions regarding their potential subjugation to municipal rule.</p>
<p>By closing that loophole (or by a city council adopting a policy that it will never utilize that loophole), real growth management can occur. Without such a commitment, we&#8217;ll get the Eagle, Star, and Kuna debacle all over the county &#8211; which is nothing more than run away, unregulated growth.</p>
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		<title>
		By: boisecynic		</title>
		<link>https://boiseguardian.com/2007/09/18/tibbs-presents-a-real-issue/#comment-6353</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[boisecynic]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 12:04:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://boiseguardian.com/wp/?p=746#comment-6353</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Cyclops, when you stated &quot;But, I guess that&#039;s OK because all those kids can go downtown to the river and watch 15-20 people play in their kayaks. But don&#039;t try and play ball, or soccer down there, tree huggers only&quot; I lost a lot of respect for you.

That statement was an unnecessary ad hominem attack. If you&#039;re talking about the River Recreation Park, you should disclose that it will be much much more than a kayaking feature for 15 or 20 people. It will be a park without equal in the world. It WILL HAVE soccer fields. And guess what, it will be open to those who live outside Boise City limits and didn&#039;t pay a dime for its construction. Forget all that though, most of the RR Park construction will be funded by private donations, as I currently understand it.

The kayak features will be cost between $1 and $2 million. That&#039;s about 1% of the annual city budget and only a tiny fraction of 1% of the annual budget when extrapolated over its useful life of many decades.

I&#039;m no fan of team Dave, but isn&#039;t annexation an issue of the long term? Whoever is mayor will have to deal with it. Furthermore, I can&#039;t believe people cripe so much over what amounts to be a few hundred dollars a year. If you&#039;re so worried about a few hundred dollars a year then you have problems to worry about other than annexation.

One might argue about being forced to hook up to sewer which will cost several thousand. In that regard I favor limited grandfather rights.

Personally, I believe the benefits of annexation outweigh the detriments. What I&#039;d like to see and what is rarely talked about, is giving individual neighborhood associations greater power. Such as; power over police personnel and what exactly they do in the neigborhood, veto power over developments, and the ability to charge park entrance fees to those who live outside city limits.

KEYPOINT:

Perhaps each neighborhood association president could have an automatic seat on the city council. Think about that! A newly annexed neighborhood will instantly get a seat on the council.

I guess I should change my name to BoiseIdealist. :-)
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cyclops, when you stated &#8220;But, I guess that&#8217;s OK because all those kids can go downtown to the river and watch 15-20 people play in their kayaks. But don&#8217;t try and play ball, or soccer down there, tree huggers only&#8221; I lost a lot of respect for you.</p>
<p>That statement was an unnecessary ad hominem attack. If you&#8217;re talking about the River Recreation Park, you should disclose that it will be much much more than a kayaking feature for 15 or 20 people. It will be a park without equal in the world. It WILL HAVE soccer fields. And guess what, it will be open to those who live outside Boise City limits and didn&#8217;t pay a dime for its construction. Forget all that though, most of the RR Park construction will be funded by private donations, as I currently understand it.</p>
<p>The kayak features will be cost between $1 and $2 million. That&#8217;s about 1% of the annual city budget and only a tiny fraction of 1% of the annual budget when extrapolated over its useful life of many decades.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m no fan of team Dave, but isn&#8217;t annexation an issue of the long term? Whoever is mayor will have to deal with it. Furthermore, I can&#8217;t believe people cripe so much over what amounts to be a few hundred dollars a year. If you&#8217;re so worried about a few hundred dollars a year then you have problems to worry about other than annexation.</p>
<p>One might argue about being forced to hook up to sewer which will cost several thousand. In that regard I favor limited grandfather rights.</p>
<p>Personally, I believe the benefits of annexation outweigh the detriments. What I&#8217;d like to see and what is rarely talked about, is giving individual neighborhood associations greater power. Such as; power over police personnel and what exactly they do in the neigborhood, veto power over developments, and the ability to charge park entrance fees to those who live outside city limits.</p>
<p>KEYPOINT:</p>
<p>Perhaps each neighborhood association president could have an automatic seat on the city council. Think about that! A newly annexed neighborhood will instantly get a seat on the council.</p>
<p>I guess I should change my name to BoiseIdealist. 🙂</p>
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		<title>
		By: eric		</title>
		<link>https://boiseguardian.com/2007/09/18/tibbs-presents-a-real-issue/#comment-6352</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[eric]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 11:49:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://boiseguardian.com/wp/?p=746#comment-6352</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Small correction, Sara. If I remember correctly, only those of us who signed up for a low-interest loan to pay the fees for sewer service in SW Boise had to sign the promise not to oppose annexation. The fees per lot were approximately $8,000 and the City offered a low-cost loan option. The fees only allowed us to hook up to the sewer and did not inlude the line from the house to the street. It was well worth the money, by the way. Also, annexation was no surprise. I bought near Overland and 5-mile in 1978. I remember talking to the realtor at the time about how annexation was just a matter of time.
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Small correction, Sara. If I remember correctly, only those of us who signed up for a low-interest loan to pay the fees for sewer service in SW Boise had to sign the promise not to oppose annexation. The fees per lot were approximately $8,000 and the City offered a low-cost loan option. The fees only allowed us to hook up to the sewer and did not inlude the line from the house to the street. It was well worth the money, by the way. Also, annexation was no surprise. I bought near Overland and 5-mile in 1978. I remember talking to the realtor at the time about how annexation was just a matter of time.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Grumpy ole guy		</title>
		<link>https://boiseguardian.com/2007/09/18/tibbs-presents-a-real-issue/#comment-6351</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Grumpy ole guy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 06:03:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://boiseguardian.com/wp/?p=746#comment-6351</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Isn&#039;t all annexation &quot;forced&quot; onto some of those properties annexed?   Sure it is.  There is never a 100% of the property owners who favor anything, annexation, nude bill collectors or very slow dog catchers.   Someone will always think that his or her annexation was &quot;forced&quot; upon him or her.   There HAS to be a way and a means of orderly growth and that means is set forth in the Idaho State Constitution.  If people don&#039;t like the process they should seek to change the constitution and State Laws regulating it.  If they don&#039;t like the way it is being considered they have the right (and, dare I say, obligation) to oppose it at the advertised hearings on the subject.  If they don&#039;t like the result, well they can do whatever protest they like, so long as it is a legal one; but, if they don&#039;t speak up BEFORE the fact, they forfeit any and all legal means and are left with the mitch and bone option.  Too bad, so sad.
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			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t all annexation &#8220;forced&#8221; onto some of those properties annexed?   Sure it is.  There is never a 100% of the property owners who favor anything, annexation, nude bill collectors or very slow dog catchers.   Someone will always think that his or her annexation was &#8220;forced&#8221; upon him or her.   There HAS to be a way and a means of orderly growth and that means is set forth in the Idaho State Constitution.  If people don&#8217;t like the process they should seek to change the constitution and State Laws regulating it.  If they don&#8217;t like the way it is being considered they have the right (and, dare I say, obligation) to oppose it at the advertised hearings on the subject.  If they don&#8217;t like the result, well they can do whatever protest they like, so long as it is a legal one; but, if they don&#8217;t speak up BEFORE the fact, they forfeit any and all legal means and are left with the mitch and bone option.  Too bad, so sad.</p>
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