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	<title>
	Comments on: &#8220;Rest of Us&#8221; Pay For Failed Development Costs	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://boiseguardian.com/2009/04/13/2506/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://boiseguardian.com/2009/04/13/2506/</link>
	<description>A different slant on the news.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 02:46:52 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Clippityclop		</title>
		<link>https://boiseguardian.com/2009/04/13/2506/#comment-12580</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Clippityclop]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Apr 2009 02:46:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://boiseguardian.com/?p=2506#comment-12580</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Phobe, my love,

When you&#039;re looking at several hundred million dollars of improvements to say, Highway 55,  maintenance costs are fairly peanut-esque.  I think Avimor tanked because, well, the location blows.  Too bad Suncor laid out the cash they did, but even worse, the environment took a beating, no matter what they planted.  The whole thing is a nasty scar.  It&#039;s still amazing to me that the Commishes ever bit on this fish story, but there&#039;s no telling...  Unfortunately, the taxpayers will provide the bailout because we&#039;re still breathing.  Now that blows, too.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phobe, my love,</p>
<p>When you&#8217;re looking at several hundred million dollars of improvements to say, Highway 55,  maintenance costs are fairly peanut-esque.  I think Avimor tanked because, well, the location blows.  Too bad Suncor laid out the cash they did, but even worse, the environment took a beating, no matter what they planted.  The whole thing is a nasty scar.  It&#8217;s still amazing to me that the Commishes ever bit on this fish story, but there&#8217;s no telling&#8230;  Unfortunately, the taxpayers will provide the bailout because we&#8217;re still breathing.  Now that blows, too.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Antiphobe		</title>
		<link>https://boiseguardian.com/2009/04/13/2506/#comment-12571</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Antiphobe]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 22:14:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://boiseguardian.com/?p=2506#comment-12571</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Still not sure my point got through to you Clippity.  Completion bonds assure completion, but what insures that sales and tax base occur as promised?  I think we agree, but I&#039;m making a point that bonds aren&#039;t the solution to the tax base delimma when an Avimor is slow to produe and/or never produces.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Still not sure my point got through to you Clippity.  Completion bonds assure completion, but what insures that sales and tax base occur as promised?  I think we agree, but I&#8217;m making a point that bonds aren&#8217;t the solution to the tax base delimma when an Avimor is slow to produe and/or never produces.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Wonk Vader		</title>
		<link>https://boiseguardian.com/2009/04/13/2506/#comment-12567</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Wonk Vader]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 17:49:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://boiseguardian.com/?p=2506#comment-12567</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Clip, I mentioned this in a prior post but here are some of the services that are spatially dependent: electricity, roads, postal, cable, fiber optic, public safety, wastewater, water, trash, EMS, social services, recreation, telephone and probably some others I forgot. There are fixed capital and labor costs associated with providing all these services and the fewer ratepayers/taxpayers there are per square mile, the more denser areas have to pay to offset others peoples&#039; higher service costs. True, many rural dwellers have fewer services, so deduct as necessary for each instance. 

My point is that low-density development is much less efficient and costly to service. If you&#039;re going to apply that argument to uncompleted planned communities, in all fairness, you must also apply it to development that is low-density by design. Some of the biggest growthophobes around live in just such development. 

As for moving to Calcutta, there are plenty of examples of dense, efficient development that are part of Idaho&#039;s original heritage, both new and modern. Rural development only became low-density with the advent of the automobile and roads. Before then, rural dwellers were truly self-sufficient or grouped in dense small towns.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clip, I mentioned this in a prior post but here are some of the services that are spatially dependent: electricity, roads, postal, cable, fiber optic, public safety, wastewater, water, trash, EMS, social services, recreation, telephone and probably some others I forgot. There are fixed capital and labor costs associated with providing all these services and the fewer ratepayers/taxpayers there are per square mile, the more denser areas have to pay to offset others peoples&#8217; higher service costs. True, many rural dwellers have fewer services, so deduct as necessary for each instance. </p>
<p>My point is that low-density development is much less efficient and costly to service. If you&#8217;re going to apply that argument to uncompleted planned communities, in all fairness, you must also apply it to development that is low-density by design. Some of the biggest growthophobes around live in just such development. </p>
<p>As for moving to Calcutta, there are plenty of examples of dense, efficient development that are part of Idaho&#8217;s original heritage, both new and modern. Rural development only became low-density with the advent of the automobile and roads. Before then, rural dwellers were truly self-sufficient or grouped in dense small towns.</p>
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		<title>
		By: James		</title>
		<link>https://boiseguardian.com/2009/04/13/2506/#comment-12559</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[James]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 15:25:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://boiseguardian.com/?p=2506#comment-12559</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I feel the need to defend me and my fellow &quot;ranchette&quot; owners.  I have lived on a 5 acre parcel in South Boise for 25 years.  The septic system on my property is self sufficient, it works with natural enzymes and I have never had to get it pumped (no city sewer).  The well on my property is also self sufficient (no city water, responsible water consumption is a possible issue but we are talking infrastructure costs).  The space allows for horses, chickens, and a fantastic garden.  If there were major tax payer expenses put into gas and electricity infrastructure it would be news to me, being that the lines were already 50 feet from my house on a major road.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I feel the need to defend me and my fellow &#8220;ranchette&#8221; owners.  I have lived on a 5 acre parcel in South Boise for 25 years.  The septic system on my property is self sufficient, it works with natural enzymes and I have never had to get it pumped (no city sewer).  The well on my property is also self sufficient (no city water, responsible water consumption is a possible issue but we are talking infrastructure costs).  The space allows for horses, chickens, and a fantastic garden.  If there were major tax payer expenses put into gas and electricity infrastructure it would be news to me, being that the lines were already 50 feet from my house on a major road.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Good Boy Phobe!		</title>
		<link>https://boiseguardian.com/2009/04/13/2506/#comment-12557</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Good Boy Phobe!]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 13:21:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://boiseguardian.com/?p=2506#comment-12557</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[You nailed it phobe.  That is exactly what is needed.  A bond that covers completion, or buy back and removal, which ever is cheaper.  And, if completion is the answer, the bond needs to cover the maintenance for a reasonable length of time, say 30 years.

Welcome to the real world.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You nailed it phobe.  That is exactly what is needed.  A bond that covers completion, or buy back and removal, which ever is cheaper.  And, if completion is the answer, the bond needs to cover the maintenance for a reasonable length of time, say 30 years.</p>
<p>Welcome to the real world.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Clippityclop		</title>
		<link>https://boiseguardian.com/2009/04/13/2506/#comment-12552</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Clippityclop]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 11:17:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://boiseguardian.com/?p=2506#comment-12552</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Antiphobe,

Every major construction company is required to bond out as part of their bid, or nobody would dream of accepting the bid.  The ability to produce this surety is a huge source of pride for companies because it says that the surety also agrees that they can do what they say they can do, and protection is guaranteed.  Most, if not all of these developers do NOT have the financial horsepower to fund the infrastructure for these projects and must rely on home sales which is an extraordinary gamble -- one that shouldn&#039;t be backed by the citizens of Ada County.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Antiphobe,</p>
<p>Every major construction company is required to bond out as part of their bid, or nobody would dream of accepting the bid.  The ability to produce this surety is a huge source of pride for companies because it says that the surety also agrees that they can do what they say they can do, and protection is guaranteed.  Most, if not all of these developers do NOT have the financial horsepower to fund the infrastructure for these projects and must rely on home sales which is an extraordinary gamble &#8212; one that shouldn&#8217;t be backed by the citizens of Ada County.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Antiphobe		</title>
		<link>https://boiseguardian.com/2009/04/13/2506/#comment-12550</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Antiphobe]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 05:12:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://boiseguardian.com/?p=2506#comment-12550</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Guardian &#038; Clippityclop (would be a great name for a country band) I don&#039;t agree...I don&#039;t think performance bonds do the trick.  Correct me if I&#039;m wrong but the intent of performance bonds are so that developers/builders can market and sell prior to infrastructure being completed.  The bonds protect buyers who purchase early on by insuring that if the developer bails, there will be a bond in place pay for completing roads, sewers, parks..whatever the developer has committed to building.  That&#039;s fine and dandy, but it&#039;s only half the protection that is needed.  After completion, roads (easiest example) are accepted by ACHD who then maintains them.  If there are not enough sales to support the maintenance of those roads (see Exhibit A as in Avimor) then who subsidizes that cost.  You, me and other suckers who pay into the ACHD pool.  I point you back to my original post - something in the way of a tax base tracking/verification system is needed.  Completing the development is one thing, paying for its ongoing maintenance and overhead with only 5 homebuyers living there is quite another.   

Unless you are suggesting a performance bond that protects the sales forecast...then yeah I guess that would work hadn&#039;t thought of that option.

EDITOR NOTE--Don&#039;t care where the bond comes from or what it is called, but some sort of &quot;insurance policy&quot; is needed to protect the &quot;rest of us&quot; other than making more tax laws and exemptions, rebates, etc.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Guardian &amp; Clippityclop (would be a great name for a country band) I don&#8217;t agree&#8230;I don&#8217;t think performance bonds do the trick.  Correct me if I&#8217;m wrong but the intent of performance bonds are so that developers/builders can market and sell prior to infrastructure being completed.  The bonds protect buyers who purchase early on by insuring that if the developer bails, there will be a bond in place pay for completing roads, sewers, parks..whatever the developer has committed to building.  That&#8217;s fine and dandy, but it&#8217;s only half the protection that is needed.  After completion, roads (easiest example) are accepted by ACHD who then maintains them.  If there are not enough sales to support the maintenance of those roads (see Exhibit A as in Avimor) then who subsidizes that cost.  You, me and other suckers who pay into the ACHD pool.  I point you back to my original post &#8211; something in the way of a tax base tracking/verification system is needed.  Completing the development is one thing, paying for its ongoing maintenance and overhead with only 5 homebuyers living there is quite another.   </p>
<p>Unless you are suggesting a performance bond that protects the sales forecast&#8230;then yeah I guess that would work hadn&#8217;t thought of that option.</p>
<p>EDITOR NOTE&#8211;Don&#8217;t care where the bond comes from or what it is called, but some sort of &#8220;insurance policy&#8221; is needed to protect the &#8220;rest of us&#8221; other than making more tax laws and exemptions, rebates, etc.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Clippityclop		</title>
		<link>https://boiseguardian.com/2009/04/13/2506/#comment-12545</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Clippityclop]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 02:49:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://boiseguardian.com/?p=2506#comment-12545</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Clancy/Wonk,

What color is the sky in your world?  Please reread my previous post.  Rural dwellers have trash service, but water and sewer aren&#039;t an issue.  EMS services are what they are -- nobody expects a 4-minute response time and assumes the risk.  The same is true for wildfire.  Again, if folks wanted urban services, they would have moved to town!

G, I agree.  It&#039;s all about the performance bond.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clancy/Wonk,</p>
<p>What color is the sky in your world?  Please reread my previous post.  Rural dwellers have trash service, but water and sewer aren&#8217;t an issue.  EMS services are what they are &#8212; nobody expects a 4-minute response time and assumes the risk.  The same is true for wildfire.  Again, if folks wanted urban services, they would have moved to town!</p>
<p>G, I agree.  It&#8217;s all about the performance bond.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Wonk Vader		</title>
		<link>https://boiseguardian.com/2009/04/13/2506/#comment-12543</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Wonk Vader]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Apr 2009 00:04:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://boiseguardian.com/?p=2506#comment-12543</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Antiphobe, I think that is a great idea you have. I do not often hear people here discuss constructive solutions to things but that is an excellent way to follow up on the promises of developers. What&#039;s that Russian adage? &quot;Trust but verify.&quot;

What sort of consequences could developers face for not meeting their self-established benchmarks? Loss of density bonuses? Financial penalties? How long and sharp the teeth?

EDITOR NOTE--Some sort of &quot;performance bond&quot; would probably do the trick much more easily.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Antiphobe, I think that is a great idea you have. I do not often hear people here discuss constructive solutions to things but that is an excellent way to follow up on the promises of developers. What&#8217;s that Russian adage? &#8220;Trust but verify.&#8221;</p>
<p>What sort of consequences could developers face for not meeting their self-established benchmarks? Loss of density bonuses? Financial penalties? How long and sharp the teeth?</p>
<p>EDITOR NOTE&#8211;Some sort of &#8220;performance bond&#8221; would probably do the trick much more easily.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Clancy		</title>
		<link>https://boiseguardian.com/2009/04/13/2506/#comment-12540</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Clancy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Apr 2009 20:32:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://boiseguardian.com/?p=2506#comment-12540</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Clippty,

Wonk was try to say-  it is more efficient (water,sewer,trash) to have 40 houses per mile of road versus 4 to 6.

I think PC&#039;s can be very beneficial for their stated reasons.  Avimor&#039;s demise has nothing to do whether or not it was well planned.  I would say the best example of a PC is Bown Crossing though it was never touted to be.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clippty,</p>
<p>Wonk was try to say-  it is more efficient (water,sewer,trash) to have 40 houses per mile of road versus 4 to 6.</p>
<p>I think PC&#8217;s can be very beneficial for their stated reasons.  Avimor&#8217;s demise has nothing to do whether or not it was well planned.  I would say the best example of a PC is Bown Crossing though it was never touted to be.</p>
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