Two things I know should not of happened in this conversation though:

Guardian- should never of called somebody other than their Pseudonym (Main&Cap/Tony). Some may not post in the future because of that.

John Kangas- should not post someone’s home address. If Tony wants to post it, that would be fine. Guardian should of filtered that out too.

We estimate there are 65 homes surrounding the Crow Gliding Hill with another handful including Tony’s on the far East Side of the flats. When we google earth Tony’s address at 9884 E Highway 21 Boise, Idaho we find that his scar on the land is in a dangerous location. His road will form a fire break, but if his good friends at Fish and Game cover the flats with brush, and a comprehensive plan for the area is not implemented, his “Private Idaho” on the east side of Hammer Flat will be at serious risk.

For the 65 homes and families on the west side of the property, some of which are visible in the picture of the Crow Gliding Hill, the ridge road could save their lives and help protect their property from the dangers the City and F&G would create…with the rush to plant the brush.

John K.

I’m sorry to hear that you think pilots are trying to “punk” anyone – (where does that term come from anyway? I think my sister said it is from a t.v show – I don’t know as I don’t own a t.v.). Yes a road up the ridge line is visible at the bottom of the image that Kangas shot about 10 years ago, and historically pilots had used that road over the course of the last 35 years.

I can only speculate, but it would be interesting to know the origin of that road – one would guess that it may have been cut in for fire crews, or an early property owner, or someone running sheep or cattle in the foothills many many years ago. Hiking up the ridge to rivers highland valley trail there are a number of road cuts and skidder tracks still visible from years ago.

In the six years that I have been flying the crow the previous land owners requested in our handshake agreement that we not use that road.

I can’t speak to days when I was not present at the crow, but I can tell you that I’ve only seen a car up there once.

Yes, it was my truck. And yes I regret that one time error. It was late in the evening and I was trying to impress a girl – that will get a fella in trouble every time. For the record I did made it to launch in time for a short flying session where I quickly launched, made a lap, then top-landed right next to said female. She never had to take a step and I stole a kiss with the wing still over my head, relaunched and repeated the process two more times. In the end though it was a mistake – both the drive up and the girl. I wished I hadn’t never tried to impress her that way. Oh, well.

I have, like Ed Bottum – and I’m sure you, seen many more motorcycles than vehicles climbing both that road as well as the face and also riding down the face. It happened one day shortly after the city purchased the land, and I was absolutely irate as I realized what was at stake. I tried to yell the rider down so I could could converse with him one on one, but he never heard my yells over the whine of his two stroke.

Zero impact would be a weird claim for anyone to make for any use. Appropriate, low impact uses are ideas worth discussing.

EDITOR NOTE–Tony, We ran their picture with their letters. We did the same for you when you wanted to stop ACHD from granting access off Warm Springs.

One irony is that in the long run all this noise that we’ve been forced to make (we would rather go quietly fly than be compelled to read policy plans and write letters) might actually bring our sport to the attention of other valley residents and over time our community might actually grow as a result – had the city worked with us from the beginning we probably would have continued to be a very very very very small group – essentially under the radar of all valley residents.

David, I learned how to paddle with the Long family (Cascade Raft Company) when they first moved to the valley about 20 years ago at the age of 12. Whitewater parks are interesting beasts and my feelings and views about them are conflicted- it will be interesting to see how the Ray Neef WW park shapes the minds and understandings of new Boise boaters. My boating history is rooted in Secesh and S. Fork Salmon, MF Salmon, Camas Creek, Bear Cr., Clark’s Fork Yellowstone and other wilderness/roadless area overnight self support trips – those are the experiences that shaped my understanding of the natural world and wild places. I wonder about how artificial and “man enhanced” white water parks will shape the mind’s and attitudes of future paddlers and influence their relationships with wild places and desire to protect and look out for both the health and well being of those wild places as well as ensuring that they can someday visit and have access to those areas as well.
14 years guiding on the Middle Fork of the Salmon in the Frank Church has also shaped my understanding of wild places and how powerful, life altering and perspective shifting they can be for so many visitors.

64.01% –
You are correct – hang gliding and parasailing are prohibited in wilderness areas. This is largely a matter of interpretation as the wilderness bill does not specifically prohibit those activities, but the way the bill is interpreted and applied by land managers does preclude those uses. Hang gliding is allowed in Yosemite Ntl. Park on a permit basis in an analogous manner to how permits are issued to non motorized boaters on the MF/Main salmon rivers, Hells Canyon, and Selway rivers in Idaho.
The main idea is probably less about what specific activities are allowed or prohibited in wilderness than that zero public access of any kind at all – as in the case of the Hammer Flats which is situated beyond and out of view behind the adjacent Crow Gliding Area – is certainly a different approach to land management and drastically more restrictive than how even our wilderness areas are currently managed.
As a side note while pilots such as the famous Dorris brothers out of McCall have described conditions that would allow a non-motorized pilot to attempt a trans Frank Church flight the practicality of committing to such a wild place and a potential 4 day hike out with gear pretty much precludes hang gliding in the Frank from a practical standpoint. I know that just like many other private aircraft enthusiasts Kangas and his wife have enjoyed many flights into the Frank Church with their little 4 seater – even flying to Bernard airstrip on the MF for an elk hunt. We are lucky to live in such a wild state, aren’t we?

David-
Modern Hang gliding had only been around for about 3 or 4 years when the wilderness bill passed – and mostly just in Europe. It is worth pondering how the wilderness bill may have been interpreted with regards to non motorized flying craft had they been been around for as long as jet boats, lodges, private property, horse packers, airplanes and skiers when the bill was written then interpreted. Perhaps our activities would have been grand fathered in as well.

Then again our silent, unobtrusive, off-the-public-conscious-radar activity probably would have slipped under the radar just as it has in the Boise Valley for the last 35 years. Sometimes it takes the whine of a Cessna 185 or the gas guzzling rumbled of 3 350 chevies blasting up salmon falls to garner public awareness. Wild.

Exciting times.

Guardian, that runs counter to everything you’ve harped on for the past several years.  I  know you hate Bieter, but try to maintain a some dignity.

EDITOR NOTE– I will post your comment, but it makes no sense. I don’t really have a position… I just find it ironic the city has done all it can to pave and populate Harris Ranch and then strive to “save Hammer Flat.”
 

– Coming Soon! The Boise D.B. Cooper Memorial Hang Gliding Park! (Your Tax Dollars at work – an Urban Renewal District, of course. Don’t even think of hang gliding elsewhere, or you’ll be Tased.)

– Hang gliders damaging wildlife habitat is vaguely reminiscent of the argument that bicycles damage wildlife habitat, so areas are closed to cyclists but still open to hikers, back yard barbecue parties, lawn mowers, etc.

– We should be accustomed to these sorts of public property decisions; after all, the “Wilderness” area has been closed to all but “elite” uses for years.