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	Comments on: Mass Transit Needs Masses, Too Expensive	</title>
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		<title>
		By: frankr		</title>
		<link>https://boiseguardian.com/2014/11/24/mass-transit-needs-masses-too-expensive/#comment-98663</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[frankr]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2014 21:09:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://boiseguardian.com/?p=11407#comment-98663</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[OH We humans. WE want what is good for us! Dave Bieter wants what is good for his downtown core! The owner of Boise Town square mall wants what is good for mall customers! Most decisions that are made and enforced swing the pendulum in the opposite direction. ie. On Capitol Blvd, someone has eliminated parking of vehicles, in front of city hall, for loading and unloading of buses?! Why didn&#039;t those decision makers mark half the space for buses and keep half for continued parking? THE PENDULUM! So when we don&#039;t have a common sense thought process in regards to something so evident how can we expect changes to flow on the big issues. IT SHOULDN&#039;T BE ALL OR NOTHING]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OH We humans. WE want what is good for us! Dave Bieter wants what is good for his downtown core! The owner of Boise Town square mall wants what is good for mall customers! Most decisions that are made and enforced swing the pendulum in the opposite direction. ie. On Capitol Blvd, someone has eliminated parking of vehicles, in front of city hall, for loading and unloading of buses?! Why didn&#8217;t those decision makers mark half the space for buses and keep half for continued parking? THE PENDULUM! So when we don&#8217;t have a common sense thought process in regards to something so evident how can we expect changes to flow on the big issues. IT SHOULDN&#8217;T BE ALL OR NOTHING</p>
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		<title>
		By: JDB		</title>
		<link>https://boiseguardian.com/2014/11/24/mass-transit-needs-masses-too-expensive/#comment-98644</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JDB]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2014 05:01:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://boiseguardian.com/?p=11407#comment-98644</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Time for some Rail Education 101. Just because a rail line exists doesn’t mean it should or could be used for commuter rail service.  Preserving the rail corridor, however, is important for the many uses it could be put to such as a Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) busway.

First, Treasure Valley is not Salt Lake City, Denver, Albuquerque, Phoenix, or Seattle.

Second, the Valley does not have, and will not have according to COMPASS planners, the population density to support a rail operation.  COMPASS’ own maps indicate as much.  Rail requires a density of about 15 dwelling units per acre within a 1/4 mile of the rail line.  That’s about double the current density.  What’s that about being the most livable city in America?

Third, is cost. A 2003 VRT Rail Corridor Evaluation Study indicated the Capital costs of getting a rail system up and running was about $ 128 million.  That cost did not include the cost of acquiring the right-of-way nor an estimated (in 2003 dollars) annual operating cost of $ 5 million. It also did not include the cost of extending a line to Micron proper nor a new alignment between Nampa and Caldwell.

Fourth, Federal regulations do not permit mixing light rail with heavy rail at the same time on the same line.  So much for the Nampa - Caldwell connection using UP tracks. Commuter Rail is another story - and cost.

Fifth, the Guardian is correct (as usual) about travel times.  By the time you drive to one of the 7 stations (which are about 4 miles apart), wait for the train, then wait to transfer at the Depot for the vehicle to take you to your destination it will be about hour.

And time also for some Highway Education 101.  With the rebuild of the Interstate came High Occupancy Vehicle (HOV) (think car pool) lanes.  They’re there, they just haven’t been designated as such yet.  First choice for a BRT system.  BRT can foster development along its line.  Think Euclid Ave in Cleveland.

And there was a bypass loop in the plans until the last few years when it was dropped by COMPASS.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Time for some Rail Education 101. Just because a rail line exists doesn’t mean it should or could be used for commuter rail service.  Preserving the rail corridor, however, is important for the many uses it could be put to such as a Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) busway.</p>
<p>First, Treasure Valley is not Salt Lake City, Denver, Albuquerque, Phoenix, or Seattle.</p>
<p>Second, the Valley does not have, and will not have according to COMPASS planners, the population density to support a rail operation.  COMPASS’ own maps indicate as much.  Rail requires a density of about 15 dwelling units per acre within a 1/4 mile of the rail line.  That’s about double the current density.  What’s that about being the most livable city in America?</p>
<p>Third, is cost. A 2003 VRT Rail Corridor Evaluation Study indicated the Capital costs of getting a rail system up and running was about $ 128 million.  That cost did not include the cost of acquiring the right-of-way nor an estimated (in 2003 dollars) annual operating cost of $ 5 million. It also did not include the cost of extending a line to Micron proper nor a new alignment between Nampa and Caldwell.</p>
<p>Fourth, Federal regulations do not permit mixing light rail with heavy rail at the same time on the same line.  So much for the Nampa &#8211; Caldwell connection using UP tracks. Commuter Rail is another story &#8211; and cost.</p>
<p>Fifth, the Guardian is correct (as usual) about travel times.  By the time you drive to one of the 7 stations (which are about 4 miles apart), wait for the train, then wait to transfer at the Depot for the vehicle to take you to your destination it will be about hour.</p>
<p>And time also for some Highway Education 101.  With the rebuild of the Interstate came High Occupancy Vehicle (HOV) (think car pool) lanes.  They’re there, they just haven’t been designated as such yet.  First choice for a BRT system.  BRT can foster development along its line.  Think Euclid Ave in Cleveland.</p>
<p>And there was a bypass loop in the plans until the last few years when it was dropped by COMPASS.</p>
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		<title>
		By: J+Smith		</title>
		<link>https://boiseguardian.com/2014/11/24/mass-transit-needs-masses-too-expensive/#comment-98635</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J+Smith]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2014 20:36:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://boiseguardian.com/?p=11407#comment-98635</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Our current situation of sprawl is caused by the pervasive car culture, and alternatives to the car should be fully funded by car/truck users to help those who don&#039;t drive, for whatever reason, to get around in the personal automobile caused sprawl.
As for the trolley, I&#039;d like to put Team Dave on a one way train trip out of Boise.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Our current situation of sprawl is caused by the pervasive car culture, and alternatives to the car should be fully funded by car/truck users to help those who don&#8217;t drive, for whatever reason, to get around in the personal automobile caused sprawl.<br />
As for the trolley, I&#8217;d like to put Team Dave on a one way train trip out of Boise.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dave Kangas		</title>
		<link>https://boiseguardian.com/2014/11/24/mass-transit-needs-masses-too-expensive/#comment-98631</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave Kangas]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Dec 2014 16:15:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://boiseguardian.com/?p=11407#comment-98631</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[While I don&#039;t support the trolley, a commuter train for the Treasure Valley is badly needed.
I don&#039;t understand why a mass transit system needs to be profitable. How profitable are our highways? How profitable is it to commuters to be stuck in traffic(time), not to mention  the expense of gas and autos. The Treasure valley has a very unique opportunity in that it already has a rail line in place from Caldwell to Micron and beyond.
For some reason, people think that we aren&#039;t going to grow, traffic is not going to increase and somehow roads and highways just pay for themselves. 

Previous leader failed to plan for a belt loop to access the far corners of the valley. Now we have Eagle Rd, State St, increasing traffic on I-84. It is time to look ahead, to new ideas. 

Buses do not promote development along a specific corridor creating walkable neighborhoods, light rail does. 
Look at Salt Lake and the reinvigorated metropolitan areas of Denver and Phoenix.

There is a place for light rail, it is not cheap, nor are 8-10 lane freeway systems. We can&#039;t ever build enough freeways, just look at other cities that try. We need to promote a different way of looking at transporting ourselves.

EDITOR NOTE--You are correct about transit not being profitable.  Everyone understands that and few argue that it should be profitable.  The problem with light rail from Caldwell to Micron is that it depends upon RAILS.  It also depends on frequent schedules to work.  Caldwell to Micron with stops probably takes close to an hour.  The rails are a mile from Micron at present.  It would take at  dozens of trains to make an efficient system.  Rolling stock alone would be VERY expensive. That figure of capturing 3-5% of commuters is pretty accurate.  Which means of the 35,000 who commute daily, a transit system would serve about 10,000 riders.  That would mean 200 packed cars with 50 passengers each!  Once they get to Boise they need a bus system to get from the tracks to the office…billions of dollars will solve the problem, but the money simply is not there.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I don&#8217;t support the trolley, a commuter train for the Treasure Valley is badly needed.<br />
I don&#8217;t understand why a mass transit system needs to be profitable. How profitable are our highways? How profitable is it to commuters to be stuck in traffic(time), not to mention  the expense of gas and autos. The Treasure valley has a very unique opportunity in that it already has a rail line in place from Caldwell to Micron and beyond.<br />
For some reason, people think that we aren&#8217;t going to grow, traffic is not going to increase and somehow roads and highways just pay for themselves. </p>
<p>Previous leader failed to plan for a belt loop to access the far corners of the valley. Now we have Eagle Rd, State St, increasing traffic on I-84. It is time to look ahead, to new ideas. </p>
<p>Buses do not promote development along a specific corridor creating walkable neighborhoods, light rail does.<br />
Look at Salt Lake and the reinvigorated metropolitan areas of Denver and Phoenix.</p>
<p>There is a place for light rail, it is not cheap, nor are 8-10 lane freeway systems. We can&#8217;t ever build enough freeways, just look at other cities that try. We need to promote a different way of looking at transporting ourselves.</p>
<p>EDITOR NOTE&#8211;You are correct about transit not being profitable.  Everyone understands that and few argue that it should be profitable.  The problem with light rail from Caldwell to Micron is that it depends upon RAILS.  It also depends on frequent schedules to work.  Caldwell to Micron with stops probably takes close to an hour.  The rails are a mile from Micron at present.  It would take at  dozens of trains to make an efficient system.  Rolling stock alone would be VERY expensive. That figure of capturing 3-5% of commuters is pretty accurate.  Which means of the 35,000 who commute daily, a transit system would serve about 10,000 riders.  That would mean 200 packed cars with 50 passengers each!  Once they get to Boise they need a bus system to get from the tracks to the office…billions of dollars will solve the problem, but the money simply is not there.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Speckled Hen		</title>
		<link>https://boiseguardian.com/2014/11/24/mass-transit-needs-masses-too-expensive/#comment-98621</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Speckled Hen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2014 18:07:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://boiseguardian.com/?p=11407#comment-98621</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s pretty well proven that highways are also heavily subsidized. Anyone in favor of putting tolls on I-84 between Nampa/Caldwell and Boise to make up for this subsidy? I don&#039;t hear that argument very often but it is needed to keep the arguments balanced. 

From the Feds: &quot;A $9.7 billion transfer from the General Fund to the Highway Account was processed shortly after the start of the fiscal year&quot; http://www.dot.gov/highway-trust-fund-ticker

That&#039;s roughly 25% of the overall annual funding pot. 

This means that 1 in every 4 dollars Idaho receives in Federal Transportation funds is NOT generated from the gas tax and comes from the general taxpayer fund of the US Treasury. That means two of those 8 lanes on I-84 were fully subsidized by something other than motorists paying a gas tax to get the privilege of using it. 

And this has been occurring for the past 8 years. From 2008 through 2011, Congress moved $34.5 billion to the Highway Trust Fund from the general fund. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-31/u-s-highway-trust-fund-faces-insolvency-next-year-cbo-says.html]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s pretty well proven that highways are also heavily subsidized. Anyone in favor of putting tolls on I-84 between Nampa/Caldwell and Boise to make up for this subsidy? I don&#8217;t hear that argument very often but it is needed to keep the arguments balanced. </p>
<p>From the Feds: &#8220;A $9.7 billion transfer from the General Fund to the Highway Account was processed shortly after the start of the fiscal year&#8221; <a href="http://www.dot.gov/highway-trust-fund-ticker" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.dot.gov/highway-trust-fund-ticker</a></p>
<p>That&#8217;s roughly 25% of the overall annual funding pot. </p>
<p>This means that 1 in every 4 dollars Idaho receives in Federal Transportation funds is NOT generated from the gas tax and comes from the general taxpayer fund of the US Treasury. That means two of those 8 lanes on I-84 were fully subsidized by something other than motorists paying a gas tax to get the privilege of using it. </p>
<p>And this has been occurring for the past 8 years. From 2008 through 2011, Congress moved $34.5 billion to the Highway Trust Fund from the general fund. <a href="http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-31/u-s-highway-trust-fund-faces-insolvency-next-year-cbo-says.html" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-31/u-s-highway-trust-fund-faces-insolvency-next-year-cbo-says.html</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: David Hall		</title>
		<link>https://boiseguardian.com/2014/11/24/mass-transit-needs-masses-too-expensive/#comment-98618</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Hall]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Nov 2014 09:10:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://boiseguardian.com/?p=11407#comment-98618</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve pointed out in the past a very affordable mass transit system called Skytran. It was developed by NASA and roughly averages the same cost of installation as an average sidewalk. Skytran is highly efficient as well as highspeed. It is also redundant so that adding and maintaining the infrastructure is simple and cost affordable.

I would also point out the factor that &quot;rail&quot; is an antiquated notion, though the city does have in its possession not only the right of way but what could be sold off as scrap iron from the existing rails. This would not only expedite the implementation but also offset the initial development costs. 

Skytran can also be found on Facebook.

https://www.facebook.com/Sky.Tran

 http://www.skytran.us/]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve pointed out in the past a very affordable mass transit system called Skytran. It was developed by NASA and roughly averages the same cost of installation as an average sidewalk. Skytran is highly efficient as well as highspeed. It is also redundant so that adding and maintaining the infrastructure is simple and cost affordable.</p>
<p>I would also point out the factor that &#8220;rail&#8221; is an antiquated notion, though the city does have in its possession not only the right of way but what could be sold off as scrap iron from the existing rails. This would not only expedite the implementation but also offset the initial development costs. </p>
<p>Skytran can also be found on Facebook.</p>
<p><a href="https://www.facebook.com/Sky.Tran" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.facebook.com/Sky.Tran</a></p>
<p> <a href="http://www.skytran.us/" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.skytran.us/</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Zippo		</title>
		<link>https://boiseguardian.com/2014/11/24/mass-transit-needs-masses-too-expensive/#comment-98614</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zippo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Nov 2014 23:35:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://boiseguardian.com/?p=11407#comment-98614</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Yep, last I checked you can&#039;t drive a propane/CNG tank through a tunnel... wonder why it&#039;s ok to drive several of them under a building??  (New bus station)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yep, last I checked you can&#8217;t drive a propane/CNG tank through a tunnel&#8230; wonder why it&#8217;s ok to drive several of them under a building??  (New bus station)</p>
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		<title>
		By: erico49		</title>
		<link>https://boiseguardian.com/2014/11/24/mass-transit-needs-masses-too-expensive/#comment-98613</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[erico49]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Nov 2014 19:35:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://boiseguardian.com/?p=11407#comment-98613</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Craig--A lot of us could break even (or make a profit)if we could get someone else to front our capital costs and administration. Sign me up. Are you serious?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Craig&#8211;A lot of us could break even (or make a profit)if we could get someone else to front our capital costs and administration. Sign me up. Are you serious?</p>
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		<title>
		By: John Q. Public		</title>
		<link>https://boiseguardian.com/2014/11/24/mass-transit-needs-masses-too-expensive/#comment-98612</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Q. Public]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Nov 2014 16:32:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://boiseguardian.com/?p=11407#comment-98612</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Among the many flaws associated with the City&#039;s handling of Mass Transit, I&#039;ve not seen anyone point out a very serious - and potentially deadly - design flaw in the new Transit Center, to wit : If a Bus were to break down on egress, ALL buses would be trapped in the underground Transit Center as the egress lane is only wide enough to accommodate 1 Bus.

Additionally, in the event of a Fire (remember when a CNG Bus burned out of control on Main St. a few years back?), emergency exits are few and inadequate.

P.S.  Dirty little secret:  Valley Ride cannot maintain its schedule(s) AND obey traffic laws.  Bus Drivers must regularly speed and otherwise violate multiple traffic laws in an attempt to maintain unrealistic schedules that do not take into account emerging traffic patterns, weather conditions, or long known road construction projects.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Among the many flaws associated with the City&#8217;s handling of Mass Transit, I&#8217;ve not seen anyone point out a very serious &#8211; and potentially deadly &#8211; design flaw in the new Transit Center, to wit : If a Bus were to break down on egress, ALL buses would be trapped in the underground Transit Center as the egress lane is only wide enough to accommodate 1 Bus.</p>
<p>Additionally, in the event of a Fire (remember when a CNG Bus burned out of control on Main St. a few years back?), emergency exits are few and inadequate.</p>
<p>P.S.  Dirty little secret:  Valley Ride cannot maintain its schedule(s) AND obey traffic laws.  Bus Drivers must regularly speed and otherwise violate multiple traffic laws in an attempt to maintain unrealistic schedules that do not take into account emerging traffic patterns, weather conditions, or long known road construction projects.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Steve+Crea		</title>
		<link>https://boiseguardian.com/2014/11/24/mass-transit-needs-masses-too-expensive/#comment-98611</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve+Crea]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Nov 2014 15:03:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://boiseguardian.com/?p=11407#comment-98611</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Dale Gribble:

Are not all of these initiatives being flogged by Bieter and his minions?

And, is this not a thinly disguised income redistribution ploy?  It does not come close to paying for itself.

Do Idahoans (vs. transplants) really want a mini NYC, or a mini Oakland, with all of the resultant city pollution that goes with it, and the resultant crime, and so forth?

EDITOR NOTE--It is no doubt a ploy to get a &quot;local option sales tax&quot; as well.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dale Gribble:</p>
<p>Are not all of these initiatives being flogged by Bieter and his minions?</p>
<p>And, is this not a thinly disguised income redistribution ploy?  It does not come close to paying for itself.</p>
<p>Do Idahoans (vs. transplants) really want a mini NYC, or a mini Oakland, with all of the resultant city pollution that goes with it, and the resultant crime, and so forth?</p>
<p>EDITOR NOTE&#8211;It is no doubt a ploy to get a &#8220;local option sales tax&#8221; as well.</p>
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