Has anyone read the writings of the early 20th Century Harvard Humanities professor, Irving Babbitt? He wrote elequently of the failings of Internationlism and how the root of much injustice derives from a priveledged few’s desire to live expansively. His writings are easy enough to google.

As to your writings, BG:

“We will never be able to kill enough Muslims to get them to love us by force.” True enough, death always begets death – even for “Islamofacists”.

“You can’t impose democracy on any country.” Absolutely correct, no more than you can take over breathing for someone. Whatever neocon thought that democracy could be “exported” like some post-industrial widget must have flunked PoliSci. True democracy is a grassroots phenomena – always has been, always will be.

“The DRAFT is the only way to end the war in Iraq. The iPod set won’t serve against their will.” Careful, you’re showing your gray. Most younger folks are eager to prove themselves capable – and would be more than happy to march to the same old drummer if it would give them the opportunity. And, even a draft would have its dodgers (I think “W” still owes a few hours to the National Guard, and Cheney never served).

“Condoning official torture diminishes the stature of America and Americans.” 100% correct. Now if we could only officially adopt the Universal Declaration of Human Rights – we’re one of the few first-world nations that have failed to do so. As far as I know Boise has the only copy of the UDHR on public display in the US (carved in stone nontheless) – it’s located at the Idaho Anne Frank Memorial.

“We no longer have a “volunteer” force. These once proud servicemen and women are being forced against their will to prosecute a war that even the (retired) generals condemn.” Sorry, you’ll have to do a better job at defining “volunteer”. I have yet to meet a current or former solder that has lost pride in what they’re doing (or have done) for their country. Perhaps you intended to write that the current actions of the President are besmerching the honor of those who are willing to place themselves in harms way – and that his actions dishonor the sacrifices made each day to carry out his questionable orders?

As to Wal-Mart… It’s just begun issuing store credit cards in China. Of course there’s only six Wal-Marts in the whole country but give it time. The iPod’ers of the new China are proving just as capable at embracing envy as the rest of us – they all want new cars and homes in the suburbs. I wince to think of an earth with one billion new yuppies.

EDITOR NOTE–Monkey, you speak well on our behalf. The ref to Wal-Mart was using Red China to produce the goods for USA consumption. We share your concern over “commie yuppies.”

G, I can’t tell, are you raising the white flag?

I have friends family and neighbors in the fight now…I have tremendous respect for veterans, past and present. The crowds are too sparse at the parades folks. And the healthcare SUCKS!!

G has it somewhat wrong: WWII ended because the good-side stomped the bad-side into TOTAL defeat. Afterwhich the good-side developed successful peaceful democratic governments in those defeated countries… In reality the war was very nasty, bloody, costly, but short. Internal debate remained internal. We didn’t incriminate our own troops…even when entire bomber groups dropped on the wrong city… Or half a navy got sunk because it was Sunday. We kept our eye on the ball.

The rebuild took 30 years or more. A massive shift in world power occured. The US was on top by many times. Perhaps as with the British before us, a shift is again occuring?

The Mid-East region was tightly controled by the British prior to WWII until weakend by war with Germany…It’s been the wild-wild west ever since…

No one has wanted to be the Sheriff. But now that Arabs have substantial wealth and reach, they’ve chosen to attact the US…in NYC and D.C. The US is forced to do something don’t you think?

Their religion has no central power structure….so even if it’s a peaceful religion, it has no means of stopping the bad apples.

The G has it right: We have fools trying to skip the important, but all-around most costly step of TOTAL defeat. Thus draging it out for several many years…”It will go for decades” GW Bush has said many times. Rummy and Kissenger (Kissenger is now advising Bush) who were in the WhiteHouse in the early 1970’s trying to do the same thing then…

This may well be about corporate contracts…who knows? But probably is as simple as trying to skip over the shocking cost and blood of a total stomping.

I worry: The real hinderance is the power and money the enemy now has within the US. Our enemy is very wealthy. If you think your vote counts for something…ask yourself how much of the US you own? Been asked to play golf by any Congressmen lately? I think this war would stop suddenly, with the sudden end of the leadership of enemy nations… Why do we go after villigers because they have guns rather than national leaders with whole armies? We are not going after the capital men for some reason??? I’m most worried about this…

Aside from those who are clearly profiting. The war for sure, seems to be done wrong, in the wrong place, for the wrong reasons, thus there’s the problem folks…many don’t see the threat for what it is, and don’t support fighting to bring peace. We have substantial advantages over them…however our biggest weakness is our hesitation while we debate what to do…

This is not a turf war with the commies. We can’t hug them and send money to make peace. They hate us from the deepest part of their soul…that hate has been festering for decades if not longer…they do not seek a draw with us…They seek total defeat.

They can will strike again. Which flag do you have ready folks?? Mine is not white…and I have an ipod… The draft is not needed and won’t happen… many ipod owners are clear in their minds as to what is at stake here… I’m not sure the leadership does though.

Patman–
You sound like a Republican politician. Perhaps G is a bit simplistic, but you too are not totally honest (or informed).

Recruiting: They pay grunts $15,000 to get them to re-enlist and have lowered standards to get recruits.

Killing enough to make them love us: It doesn’t matter WHO you kill, (muslims, arabs, insurgents) it doesn’t make peace to kill when you can’t really identify your enemy.

Draft: I agree with G. If there is a draft or the threat of the draft, you will see open dissent and rebellion in USA–just like Vietnam. Also when the rich kids get drafted, campaign contributions will dry up fast.

Volunteer force: When tours of duty are extended, guardsmen are recalled sooner than their contract specifies, and release from duty is deferred that is not “voluntary.” G wins that point hands down.

Generals denounce war: It IS unusual for generals to go on TV and call for resignation of defense secretary. This round is not a matter of “we know how to win, the politicians just won’t let us do it.”

Eliminating terrorists: We couldn’t eliminate the Viet Cong or commies in Vietnam, how do you propose to eliminate terrorists? G is correct to note USA is now major trade partner with commies we fought for years as well as Japan and Germany. The latter two NATIONS were attacking us. Just like Isreal attacking Lebanon. You can’t go after EVERYONE because a group of bad are terrorists….like attacking Caldwell to eliminate a group of gangbangers can claiming Caldwell “harbors” them.

Seeking and killing people based on their mindset is hard to do. Sorta like eliminating commies: how can you identify them?

I am afraid that the US government is looking a lot like pre-WWll Germany. Thank you for speaking out. I wonder if we, as citizens will be able to turn it all around.

Hey, Guardian… this is spoze to be a FUN website! Look at your mission statement!

As I read your original post, and those eloquent words from others supporting your position, and those well-thought-out responses taking issue with your position… it’s not FUN!

What a tangled web we have woven. We seem to not have the will to “stomp the bad side into TOTAL defeat.” When Truman dropped the Fat Man to end WWII, I’m sure he agonized about collateral damage, but the button was pushed anyway. We’ve adapted the Vietnam model instead – Kissinger influence? If our rules define panty-humiliation as torture, contrasted with enemies who are sawing off heads and dragging bodies through the streets, there is definitely something wrong with the picture. “Never take a knife to a gun fight,” know what I mean?

Yet, there’s no denying that the threat from wild-eyed Islamofacists is real. By their own declaration, their mission statement is “Convert or die.” If we pack it in and withdraw from Iraq, does ANYBODY believe that will strengthen our hand against those terrorist nutjobs?

Reinstating the draft would DEFINITELY make the conflict more real and personal to a lot of folks; I support the notion (despite the fact that I have a 20-year-old son who I love seeing most weekends).

My head hurts, Guardian. Let’s get back to the local stuff.

A gal named Sue Chew is running for the Legislature in my district. (Against a RINO.) If I were Chew’s campaign adviser, I’d have her passing out gum or chewin’ tobacky – your choice – at each door she knocks on!

EDITOR NOTE–Bikeboy you are totally correct! As I Vietnam vet I find little solace that I wasted two years for a cause that was futile. I returned in 1996 and it was a much nicer place. I like the Chew-chew idea.

Re the Chew-chew idea: Cool!
Years ago, Vern Emery was running for the Board of Ada County Commissioners (yep, that’s the official name of the commishes), he passed out emery boards — the kind to trim and shape your fingernails, with the slogan EMERY for BOARD of Ada County Commissioners, or somesuch typographical trick to make the pun obvious. Recipients got a kick out of it; Vern got elected.

Chew might also find name recognition is the trick.

Oh, as for the terrorist war — yeah, we’ve beat it to death and are getting nowhere. Unlike WWII, when we knew that if we could get Hirohito, Tojo, Hitler and Rommel to tell their troops, “It’s over; quit fighting,” it would end, there are no leaders of the current bunch of zealots. Oh, sure, there are imams and Osama and whoeverallelse who can egg them on, but not one of those guys has the power to get the fanatics to stop just by telling them to.

As for bombing them into oblivion — hey, great idea, you go round ’em all up and put ’em all in one spot and we’ll do it! Yeah, fat chance!
It appears that this one will be over whenever GW says it’s over, or when he’s out of power and someone else can make the call. Cut and run? Call it that if you wish. Strategic withdrawal is the military term. Not nice-sounding either way, but what alternative is there?

So lets settle something easy, like, oh, abortion or gay marriage or whether Pepsi is better than Coke. Duh.

The trouble with people who are “tired” of the war and lamenting the loss of America’s finest is that they fail to focus on the end game. To be blunt, we fight the terrorists on their turf, or someday we fight them on ours. Get a grip. This one is for all the marbles.

Our freedom comes at a very high price. It always has. Sure, we are going to lose brave men and women. Since the beginning of time people have fought each other for liberty and died in the process.

This is not about flag-waving. This is about the survival of western civilization. Against all odds and critics, Roosevelt and Churchill were right about World War II. Bush and Blair are right about World War III.

Gordon: They were all in NYC last week and Cuba the week before that….giving you and me the middle finger.

We be chicken to do the deed….means somebody would need to take the lead.

Somebody is asking the lawers what we should do next instead of the generals….Somebody says “this is war”, but they don’t realize that it really is.

Now that we are devoting huge blocks of our TV news coverage to who’s gone missing or what hollywood idiot has a drug habit, I suspect we are due another reminder.

More questions for America Defender. What does the victory on the war on terror look like? I want to know what the end of the “stay the course” is? What marbles? There were no terrorists in Iraq before we got there. How did that become their turf?

Sacrificing brave men and women is the high price of freedom, not a consequence as you imply, neither should the war be viewed as a “comma” in a history book as our President has stated because it diminishes that sacrifice. Maybe if he would attend a funeral of a service member his indifference wouldn’t be so glaring. But it seems to me that they aren’t dying for my freedom since I’ve lost freedoms since this war started. They may be fighting for Iraqi freedom but I’m not sure how high a price I’m willing to pay for that. We have unprecedented deficits and unheard of debt my kids will have to pay off because of this war. I certainly don’t think these brave men and women should be dying for an Iraqi population, more than two thirds of which want us to leave. Do you really think a bunch of bearded mullahs in Afghanistan will topple the US?

Roosevelt did everything he could to keep us out of World War II until the Japanese attacked. Have we told the rest of Western Civilization that its going down because they don’t seem too interested in fighting our war? Is World War III a War against Islam? What’s the plan for wiping those 2 billion people from the planet? Will we be using conventional, biological, chemical or nuclear weapons? Where should we maintain our torture centers? Will we be burning the Koran? What about the Muslim population in America? What if Americans want to convert? Will we herd them into camps? How do you snuff a religion? How do you defeat an enemy willing to die for its beliefs other than by hastening their departure?

If this is your vision of the America to defend then I want no part of it. If its not your vision please stop giving us this Republican koolaid to drink.

Huh? That’s your answer to the questions? There you go again with the polarizing “you are either with us or against us”. I certainly consider myself a visionary, a patriot and a lover of freedom. We can almost hear your follow up labelling those of us dissenting from self defeating policies as enemies of the state. Do you think we are traitors? Are we the bad guys? Do you think we belong in Gitmo?

Never forget this country was founded upon dissent. It was a bunch of intelligent well educated rabble rousers that decided that the American people had enough blind obedience to tyrannical policies and signed a document telling the British government to take a hike, which was quite accurately called the Declaration of Independence. They also had enough intelligence to recognize that all government can be potentially oppressive which is why the founding fathers established certain freedoms every citizen can enjoy without fear from its own or any other government. We call those the Bill of Rights. Yet every time I open a newspaper these days I see Republicans arguing how this war requires us to give up some of those rights and that the President needs more power to invade those rights. Frankly I think that’s unAmerican and unpatriotic and certainly does not “honor liberty” as you put it.

I appreciate the McCain family legacy in service to this country’s military and I also support Senator McCain’s stand on the torture bill who above all others knows what it means for our troops. But forsaking the free will God gave you for blind obedience for a corrupt cause is what will certainly doom this country. A great man once said: “If tyranny and oppression come to this land it will come in the guise of fighting a foriegn enemy”. His name was James Madison fourth president and author of the Constitution.

And please be careful. You may impugn my character but insinuating that my momma didn’t teach me pride in my country might be going a bit over the line. We should both recognize that we love our country, we just have different ways of showing it. I for one do not subsribe to the notion that I must lose my country in order to save it.

You have it right, Jack.

The Islamo-fascists are gunning for us. They want us dead because we are not Muslims. Their fanatical religion teaches death to the infidels.

It is the irony of ironies that the peacemakers will have to defend themselves through war or be annihilated. The Israelis are all too aware of this.

“You can’t impose democracy on any country.”

Huh? And you all think that is true? I think your history is a bit lacking. We, the US, imposed democracy on both Germany and Japan following WW-II. And look at those countries today, are they not doing quite well?

The trouble with invading Iraq is that it is a Muslim country with a large Arab population (and the US supports Israel). This mess is considerably more complex than what is presented here. We never should have been so arrogant to assume that we could impose democracy on a people who are not the least bit interested in hearing it from us, the “never say no” supporters of Israel.

Isn’t it interesting to see how when weak arguments are posited and then rightfully challenged, the presenter bears his teeth and shows his true colors?

In this case it’s the color of racism and religious intolerance. Bravo “American Defender” for proving why there are so many commentors opposing your ideas.

Now, if only your (towel-head hating, Muslim bashing) ideas were isolated to the radical fringe and not driving so much of current American foreign policy.

And for the record, the post-WWII Marshall Plan was successful because it fostered the cooperation of moderates in Japan through a massive influx of financial aide and the immediate cessation of military hostilities. Japan was (and still is) culturally, racially, and religiously monolithic – very much unlike today’s Iraq. The splitting of Germany, the erection of the Iron Curtain, the launching of the Cold War, and keeping the world teetering on the precipice of nuclear distruction for nearly 50 years can hardly be considered a successful introduction to German democracy. Also ( by the way), Hitler was democractically elected Germany’s Chancellor in 1933.

How appropriate that Santayana’s ‘Reason in Common Sense’ is misquoted (“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”), and used to try and justify actions that blatantly ignore historical fact.

“Thanks George. I was growing weary of the futility of the debate. Excellent comments from one who obviously knows his history. Since you did the leg work I would add in rebuttal to Blog Not that we did not “impose” democracy on Germany and Japan”

“leg work”, “knows his history”, are you serious? My gawd, the only thing weaker than your arguments is your history! MacArthur wrote the draft of the first post-war Japanese consitution, until then Japan was not much more than a monarchy. As for Germany, the Weimar Republic essentially ended once the Nazis came into power. And no, Hitler was never elected, that is a fairy tale told by those who don’t read history but only repeat what they’ve heard others say. Hitler was appointed “Chancellor” by President Hindenburg in 1933, he was never elected. A new German political reality did not really emerge until 1949 and they were not anything close to a sovereign state until 1954, almost nine years after the end of the war. Nine years! Oh sure, the Marshall Plan influenced things, but the political reality in both countries at the end of WW-II was handed to them under threat from our guns. For crying out loud, do some reading once in a while. Just because something is on TV does not make it true.

EDITOR NOTE–We posted this for the historical perspective only. The debate thread has been closed due to acrimony beyond civil discourse which we were unable to post.