What might be the market rate for treating sewage in Boise City? At the expense of the potential customer (Avimor): calculate the cost per ton of sewage processing and allow the Avimor Neighborhood Association to pay a fair market rate for Boise to treat the sewage.

The risks involved in trucking human waste should be no more than the risks involved in trucking nuclear waste to an abandoned Titan Missile site along the Snake River for long term storage…

I would prefer Avimor build its own state-of-the-art treatment facility as a model for future sprawling developments to follow.

If this was a new 80 acre trailer park being built south of the airport and Boise City found out the developers were planning on trucking in feces do you think Boise would let it happen?

Clancy and Redneck–
It seems LOGICAL to me that the G-man is just trying to show that a growth project Bieter opposses is presuming to have Boise Citizens pay for infrastructure to facilitate their greedy development. The technical side is not important.

I guess poop really does roll down hill.
Does this mean that Avimor is in deep doo-doo?
I can’t imagine Mayor Bieter rolling out the red carpet for sludge-handling, unless there’s major bling in that there poop.

Why does Team Dave have to take sh!+ from Avimor? They get it from the Guardian every week.

Good work on this Guardian. I really think the Avimor project will lead to Phoenix type sprawl. Its a leapfrog proposal creating taxing entities to stranglehold local government. And it doesn’t look like they are paying their way either.

You would think that the WONK’S at City Hall/Ada County/Eagle would have accumulated a lot of 20/20 hindsight by now on poor development projects. It appears that there are no limits on what the cities in this valley will do to create a TRAIN WRECK for the taxpayers to clean up when the devleopers leave town.

Somebody needs to ask “What were you thinking”? What a crappy way to handle sewage. (no pun intended)

A little clarification. The City of Eagle doesn’t even have the simplest of sewage pre-treatments, it tanks its raw sewage and pays Boise to treat the entire load. The membrane bio-reactor (MBR) at Avimor is far more sophisticated.

Clancy is correct regarding the potential uses for reclaimed sludge, but note the need to address heavy metal contamination. Given that the Avimor community doesn’t plan on any heavy industrial uses (and the MBR filters also screen out pathogens), the off-chance of heavy metal contamination is much lower than anything being shipped in from Eagle.

The additional value that such compartmentalized treatment systems bring to the localities that use them, is the liquid harvested from the filtration process. This liquid is nearly pure water – Class B in engineering parlance. The only difference between Class B and Class A (drinkable) water is the final “polishing”, which removes ultra-fine particulates (those smaller than a bacteria) and the absense of trace amounts of chlorine (added to drinking water to keep the water sterilized in the delivery pipes). This Class B water is perfect for (and legal to use for) irrigation – in fact it will be much cleaner than the pressurized irrigation water used by the City of Caldwell.

The facility at Avimor is essentially identical to the state-of-the-art MBR treatment facility now being used by the City of Star. The only difference is Avimor will be harvesting the water from the raw sewage.

Some communities that use MBR facilities inject the Class B water from their sewer treatment plants into their aquifers, letting the aquifer’s natural filtration process handle the final polishing. This ground water is then pump out, chlorinated (floridated) and used for drinking water.

This is the way of the future – I just wish Boise’s treatment plant could harvest water in the same way.

Pretty soon we’re all going to be sporting shit-eatin’ grins 😉

EDITOR NOTE–George is correct with regard to the water. The sludge from the “pump and dump”
is NOT treated, hence the need to properly (and legally) dispose of it.

Why do people seem surprised by this? Developers constantly dump on everybody who already lives in the area, a few tons more sh-t is certainly nothing new.
Boise has a good system — and is determined to enlarge the city until that system can’t handle all of Boiseans’ flushing toilets, When that time comes, then it will have to refuse to accept any more from the freeloaders who don’t create their own systems. Then what? Build a high wall around Avimor and just let the overflow fill the development? Or tell the residents they’ll just have to drive into Boise and use the restroom in a restaurant or gas station every time they have to go?
Oh, wait, excuse me; I’m thinking ahead, and that is something that’s just not acceptable to Boise officials. (Good thing I’m not in Boise at the moment; the cops probably would be charging in the door with guns drawn.)

Team Dave may not know anything about this, but I highly doubt it. For the last few years Boise Public Works has been trying to get their NPDES permits for the treatment plants reissued. (The current permits are expired but the requirements are still in effect until a new permit is issued).

The city is hoping that the new permits will include a separate Biosolids permit that would also allow them to accept MBR sludge at the poop farm. The idea of taking the sludge at the poop farm would be to “treat” the sludge by composting, or drying or one of the other EPA accepted methods. This is part of Team Dave’s master plan for development on the south side of Boise.

What they are overlooking is that by accepting this type of sludge is that the purpose of the poop farm would change enough that it would most likely require a permit from the county to operate as essentially a treatment facility. Also there would need to be a significant investment in capital equipment and the hiring of more personnel to deal with this added waste. I feel sorry for the farm boys at the poop farm. They are basically farmers right now. Little do they know that they will soon become treatment plant workers.

If the sludge is sent to the Boise treatment plant Avimor would have to have a pretreatment program that meets the permit requirements which will add significant costs to this disposal method. I also wonder how Avimor will pay for the reduction in growth that Boise can accommodate by the use of their plant.

The question about whether or not Team Dave knew about it or not is an interesting one. My guess is that they did not. Not because Team Dave didn’t care, but rather because no one asked them.

The application process for Avimor was very similar to the one for Hammer Flat. In both cases the applicant did little more than state in glowing terms that they were going to use membrane bio reactor treatment plants. Neither applicant had permits in hand from DEQ, or memos of understanding from Boise City or anyone else, when Peavey-Derr, Yzaguirre, and Tilman approved them.

In the case of Hammer Flat, Skyline Development said of the sludge: “It will be dumped into a trailer type dumpster and hauled to the landfill.”

My research indicates that Membrane Bio Reactors have to be “sized” for the anticipated load. By that I mean that a plant designed to handle 500 – 700 residences does not work very well at, say, fewer than 200 residences. Below some point MBR plants can better be described as collection and loading facilities for the poop’s trip to Boise’s plant where the real treatment occurs. In the cases of both Avimor and Hammer Flat, there was no discussion by the applicants, no permits from DEQ, and no concern on the part of Ada County as to how the poop would be handled in this intermediate situation.

In both cases, developments that are/were hailed by the developers and the county as being self contained and self supporting are, in reality, dependent on a variety of city and county facilities and services for their operation.

So, where is the Hidden Springs sludge going? And, who is minding the DEQ store?

I just keep having the feeling that we are going to be had by the developers once again.

Clancy,

Sorry for the long post, but this is about as brief an answer as I can piece together. An Idaho Supreme Court case called Fisher v City of Ketchum examined the same issue. The City of Ketchum gave a person permission to build in an avalanche path on the condition that the they get an engineering study of the project that was acceptable to the city engineer. The builder figured it was useless to pay for an engineering study unless he had permission to proceed. Fisher was angry because the engineering study and review by the city engineer took place after the effective approval of the project, and outside the public arena. Fisher thought that, as a citizen and neighbor, he had the right to review and rebut the engineering study in the course of the City’s approval process.

The Supremes agreed. Quoting from their decision: “The (city) Commission cannot issue findings of fact supporting compliance with its ordinance without the certification of a licensed engineer to the fact that the ordinance’s underlying requirements have been met. Without the certification of the licensed engineer at the public hearings leading to the issuance of the conditional use permit, the interested public has no meaningful chance to comment on the CUP’s impact on community or other facts affecting surrounding property.

“The Commission’s two-step process of “approval with conditions” prior to granting the CUP, nullifies the importance of the statutory public hearing required under I.C. § 67-6512(b). In the system which exists now, the conditions of the Commission’s “approval” are referred to staff. Staff then makes the decision as to whether the conditions have been met and refers the matter back to the Commission for final granting of the CUP. In doing so there is no chance for public comment on the final granting of the CUP. Idaho Code § 67-6512(e) specifically contemplated that further studies may be ordered but those must be done prior to granting the CUP. Again, the interested parties right to a public hearing is weakened or possibly nullified if those studies are not completed prior to the public hearing.”

Getting back to the topic at hand, DEQ might be willing to permit the trucking of sludge through town on a continuing basis. However, that does not mean it is the only solution to the problem or one that would be considered acceptable to the general public, or Boise City, if it had been divulged prior to the project’s approval. It would have been much better for everyone involved, the public, the City, probably even Avimor, if the County would have done the right thing and made the applicant acquire all the necessary permits for their intended method of operation before deeming the application complete, holding hearings, and giving it the County’s stamp of approval.

George,

Per the Guardian article, the DEQ has been aware of Avimor’s plans for a long time. Are these plans just now a revelation to the County as they apparently are to the City of Boise? It is mindboggling to imagine Avimor/Suncor would make this leap blindly or that the County planners would let this application progress so far without at least some MOU from the agencies involved. Poop, as you wisely point out, is a key issue in sustainable land use planning. What gives?

I used to worry about Avimor and its impacts. Now I’m pretty convinced it will do itself in… perhaps with help from the County that couldn’t wait to approve it, and Boise City who thought it was a bad idea in the first place.

This situation is jam packed full of opportunities. If Boise City is truely opposed to this development, it is an opportunity to just say no to treating sewage from Avimor. It is an opportunity for the Mayor to take a principled position as opposed to a political stance.

It is an opportunity for the Guardian and his supporters, myself included, to stir the pot, and put the glare of the spotlight on Avimor and all the other scams, I mean proposed developments in the foothills north of Eagle and elsewhere around the county.

But, unfortunately, it is probably also an opportunity for lawyers to make millions over this. When is anyone, anywhere going to do the right thing(s) for the citizens of Boise?

George, you almost had me crying. Poor Avimor. Poor DEQ. Poor EPA. Poor Ada County. Don’t have the time or resources to do it right, but do have the time to do it over.

By the way George, you and the wonks at Ada County may want to read the Fisher Case again. They didn’t overturn Ketchum’s approval of a project because Ketchum failed to follow their own rules. They overturned Ketchum’s approval of the project because Ketchum failed to adhere to the requirements of Idaho Code 67-6512. That bit of code sets the standards that land use bodies such as city and county commissions must follow when hearing applications for development permits. It is also worth noting that the part of IC 67-6512 the Supremes cited calling for the engineering stamp of approval prior to approving development applications makes no exception for studies, permits, etc. that have to come from state or federal agencies.

Realistically, Ada County, under the division of Development Services Armstrong administration for the promotion of Planned Communities was very self, and developer, serving. They loved to defer to whoever had the lowest standards, even to the point of artificially lowering the standard themselves if necessary. In the case of traffic, Ada County simply deferred to ITD, an agency Avimor routinely ignores, or badgers into approving their access schemes after the fact. Same thing with sewage where they deferred to DEQ and we now have the current mess. They routinely waved the Wildland Urban Fire Interface Standards

It was a little different with wildlife, particularly with the Hammer Flat application. When Fish and Game failed to cave in to Skyline’s feeble mitigation plan, Ada County hired their own wildlife consultant who was willing to set the hurdle at, Surprise! Surprise!, exactly the point the developer set it.

Once again, it would have been so much simpler, and better for everyone concerned, even Avimor, if Ada County would have simply taken the time to do it right, and followed the law right from the very beginning.

Mr. Jones,

As you so kindly pointed out, Ketchum violated IC 67-6512 — specifically the part that required the city to provide a summary of the proposed action (the consideration of the development) without revealing the engineering design of the snow wall, even though the engineering document was considered a “special report”. The city’s own ordinance obligated the city to require the applicant to submit the document as part of the application packet of material (not Idaho Code).

When the city approved the development, but only required that the special report be submitted prior to the issuance of a building permit, it violated its own rule. The city ordinance that required the engineered snow wall design, as a pre-approval special report, was enacted under the authority of IC 67-6512. When the city chose to ignor its own rule the Supreme Court determined that it had done so in an attempt to circumvent the very State Law that allowed them to make the rule.

Idaho’s not a Home Rule State — meaning locals secure their authority to make rules from the State. And, when a local agency violates such local rules, the state consideres it a violation of the State’s authority. Now if Ketchum had never required an application-packet “special report” on the snow wall (a positiona that would also have been legal), it’s absense from the application material (and subsequent addition to the development’s CUP as a condition of approval) would not have violated State Law.

Having sympathy for a land use developer would be a waste of time, and my comments are not intended to elicit any empathy for such a speculator. I can sometimes take on “wonk-ish” qualities, but this does not mean I’m an advocate for any one jurisdiction — only that the rules should be followed, and not twisted by anyone for their own purposes.

As this pertains to the Avimor poop-machine, it means that Avimor is subject to Ada County’s rules (as they existed at the time it was approved), and that Ada County is subject to the State’s rules (DEQ’s), and that ultimately the State is subject to the Fed’s rules (EPA).

Asking for the nature of that relationship to be reversed is an interesting political statement, but not much more. If I didn’t know better, I’d think that you were fairly new to Idaho’s curiously conservative spin on democracy. Your position reminds me of an old Simpson’s episode.

Mr. Burns: Ironic, isn’t it Smithers. This anonymous clan of slack-jawed troglodytes has cost me the election, and yet if I were to have them killed, I would be the one to go to jail. That’s democracy for you!

Smithers: You are noble and poetic in defeat, sir.

Mr. Jones, this little monkey considers you noble and poetic…

I agree with Tony Jones regarding where any public servant’s loyalties should lie – always with the public, and always for open and frank discussions about issues of public import.

I, for one, would like Idaho to take-over the issuance of NPDES permits — which most states already do in order to keep these decisions more local. But until that time comes, to assert that the EPA doesn’t solicit public comments on its draft reports (compiled and published before it grants any such permit) is flat wrong. Just as wrong as asserting that the DEQ or the Health Districts are managed as unaccountable Black Op’s organizations.

I, for one, did use such a public comment period to put a stop on a proposed treatment facility (right here in Idaho). I availed myself of my right as a private citizen to be heard – and it didn’t require that the entire Local/State/Federal hierarchy be changed to make it happen. Nor did I have to file a lawsuit, or pretend to be a lawyer, or attend endless public meetings, to get it done. Nor, by the way, does the airing of such grievances require some type of special knowledge on the part of an average citizen (and I am such an “average citizen” by any measurement).

By your writings Mr. Jones, it appears that you’ve been sorely misled by people with ulterior motives. Unfortunately, they appear to have thrown you off your main purpose — I hope they’ve extended their apologies.

The wheels of government may turn slowly, but that speed is just about right when it comes to carefully considering the implications of something as serious as the location and operation of a sewer treatment facility. The last thing I would want to have happen is an unknowledgeable public planning department rendering a decision on something outside its skill set. I would rather have any approval it might grant for a development have a condition that it first secure approvals for the appropriate oversight agencies before home/commercial building permits are issued.

Weren’t these conditions added to Avimor and The Cliffs development approvals? But, perhaps this isn’t your point — you just don’t like the decisions, or the way these other agencies implement their oversight. Perhaps you should run for State or Federal office — strike that, you’ve already taken too much bad advice.

Such is life…

George,

Here’s the thing… The approval of Avimor’s preliminary plats (with the hope that lots o’ unresolved issues will get squared away by conditions of approval) have let Suncor proceed with the installation of infrastructure and the expenditure of a whole lotta bucks. Is the County really going to have the stones to tell them that they can now kiss their final plat (and hence building permits) goodbye because they haven’t satisfied certain conditions like poop handling? I’ll believe it when I see it. Plus, I think this is a completely ridiculous way of both planning and doing business. Here’s a fifty that says it pisses off the public and the developers almost to the same degree.

Tom is right. The folks at city hall won’t know the difference because they, like the rich white folks living in Eagle and the future Avimor, think their poop don’t stink. What would happen if Boise could not handle the volume of poop imported from Eagle, and Boise proposed to truck Garden City poop to Eagle? Do Eagleites think Garden City poop stinks? Anyone? Would eagle city council gladly accept our Garden City poop?

I think they should truck the poop to Canyon County. They might even think it smells good and look at it as an improved nutrient. I mean, check out the herd it comes from. White, healthy , many on organic diets too. Canyon County doesn’t have a problem with polluting our air with their cars. Could be win-win.