Losing an officer to an ambush by an ex-cop is unimaginable, and it has certainly heighten the safety awareness of officers everywhere. Having said that, I noted the hysteria atmosphere in a newscast where i saw marked patrol cars in a circle with officers standing inside waiting for the siege. Unless there is additional information that police haven’t released, the shootings of citizens that followed are unjustified and inexcusable. Where are the “brass” in developing protective stategies for officers and their families, searching for the suspect and more importantly, in managing the mood of their officers so this hyper vigilance doesn’t create additional tradegies ?

It seems the police over-react in many situations. They are also overly militarized and that needs to be scaled back.

We live in a police state, what with the “Patriot Act”, and other reductions in our liberties, like the infamous “stop and frisk” policy in NYC.

Now, they are considering the use of drones right here in the USA (they are testing them on the population of Pakistan, and murdering people in bunches.)

We’ve got to put a stop to all of this.

Rod is right. We are now living in a police state, militarized close to the max. Idaho accepting to be overflown by drones is the last straw, worse than black squad cars.
Repubs are always yammering about the Constitution and protecting citizen rights–but they lay down and die anytime something like this drone proposition comes along.

Rod, Back in the 1970s, in the wake of the Vietnam War and all of its stupidity and unlawful funny business, some folks from Idaho forced several changes to the way the US operates… Those guys are long gone and the boys with the toys are back to trampling the rights they supposedly swore to defend both here and abroad. Interesting how Mr. Nobel Prize, champion of liberals, has accelerated the drone killings and the liberal Media is silent.

As for stop and frisk… it works, and I support it in places known for the type of crime it prevents. So do curfews. I also think it is a violation of civil rights to a degree… and grossly so when abused.

I believe the recent LAPD wrongful shootings will snowball on them even worse than Rodney King did… Time to start shipping extra fireman to LA perhaps? Depends on if they continue to try to cover it up. Bottom line is we need to be able to trust the cops and if we can’t we need to weaken their powers and firepower. I dislike the ACLU much of the time, but they did come to the aid of even Rush Limbaugh.

The cops are asked by the state and local governments to enforce some really bad law. State and local governments should not have the authority to regulate alcoholic beverages at all, they should not be able to criminalize pot, prostitution, or gambling.

EDITOR NOTE–Rod, (gently) let’s try to stay on topic.

The Chief’s comment looks great on the surface. On the other hand, JJ, Rod, and others are correct on most counts. I am having trouble reconciling the 2 messages. I do know that they intimidate me, and I am old and white with a clean record. I can’t imagine how younger folks must feel.

Wrong vehicle, wrong on suspect ID, wrong sex of vehicle occupants.
These cops were badge heavy, trigger happy and now need to pay for this incident. Now the city of Los Angeles is going to pay the price of what will be a large settlement at the expense of taxpayers. Employment as a police officer makes it their responsibility to be right when they pull that trigger.

Trigger happy cops need to be removed from their jobs sooner rather than later.

Many of these sites are full of upset crooks, but this one appears to be the CATO institute:

http://www.policemisconduct.net/

@mc: We are all disappointed and sad about the crazy events set off by a crazy man. However, the Bonnie and Clyde event staged by 7 LAPD officers is never acceptable. I was happy to hear our Chief’s comments and hope he is in charge of his department… many Chiefs are not.

I need to head back to work again… see ya all in May or so!
ttfn 😉

flyhead… you are right… but that rigger doesn’t always have to be on a gun. Any act of over use of force should be handled with the boot, gun, tazer, pepper, or hand/foot. These guy’s are out of control, mainly due to no or very little adult supervision. If a Joe Schmuck stuck a tazer in the crotch of a drunk passed out on a side walk like officer #2 of BPD did a couple years ago he would have been arrested, but that only applies to non cops.

This rouge cop is getting his own form of justice as many in law enforcement are prone to do. They are not held to the same laws as the rest of society so they are very willing to step outside of it. This rouge cop in LA is indicative of a police state. When he came forward with charges of corruption he was dismissed and blackballed.

If anyone doubts the allegations into corruption, racism and all types of abuses found in the LA police force, let me remind you of Rodney King, or the many other abuses perpetrated by LA police and other police forces elsewhere.

I have had my own run ins with Boise Police for instance, I received serious injuries and even had this Boise Cop draw his gun on me, though I was unarmed and no threat to him. This same officer destroyed evidence relating to this upcoming trail. I am seeking charges against this cop but cops don’t arrest cops, well… unless they go rouge.

I have little trust or faith in anyone wearing a costume with a tin star. I see them all as an affront to truth, as far too many lie. I see them all as empowered brutes, due to the fact that they will go home with pay if they kill someone. If I kill someone, I go to jail and have to make bail and have my life tossed on its ear and then have to use my own resources to prove my innocence. The department (your tax money) pays for their defense and since cops work hand in hand with prosecutors, likely they are never charged anyway.

Equality is justice. No equality, no justice.

I see far to often that those in the public trust, abuse that trust, abuse the very people they are sworn to protect. I have seen the history of police in America and the many abuses merited out at the hands and demands of corrupt public officials. No one should be above the law, but those that represent the law should never be excluded from the highest possible scrutiny of the law or else we will see more rouge cops still as cops, handing out their own form of justice.

Why Police lie –
http://www.businessinsider.com/why-police-lie-2013-2

http://reason.com/blog/2011/03/18/former-police-commissioner-exp

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/03/opinion/sunday/why-police-officers-lie-under-oath.html

thers the problem with the analogy. cops feel they have the right and authority to do what ever they want… when ever they want. I will agree with you it is a training problem. I think it starts with POST and carries through to the training they recieve during their probation and is then further reinforced in the locker room. When so called tuff guys get together they have to play mines bigger. I have always wondered exactlly what the rules concerning office saftey are, it can’t be left up to the individual.

Like I said, I am not condoning shooting people that you haven’t identified as a threat. I am saying your statement that shooting a suspected killer while he is trying to escape is an affront to our legal system and civilized society, is wrong.

The law, and its premise, is valid and has been upheld by the Supreme Court in Tennessee v. Garner. It is not about shooting people because you THINK they are guilty. It is about shooting someone because you believe their continued freedom is a deadly threat to society.

Josh, you may not condone what they did but, you sure are putting a lot of effort into justifying it. Is it the old blue line thing? If you don’t spout the party position you run the risk of being ostracized?

The first premise in your argument, and one that you seem to either be forgetting or are just simply choosing to ignore is this: these people did nothing wrong. They weren’t escaping felons they were newspaper deliverers. Their crime was doing their job at O-dark thirty in a truck that for some unknown reason these two decided posed some sort of threat. The truck was the wrong color and even the wrong make, no LOGICAL reason for the cops to think it was Dorner. We can hypothesize all we want these two cops were WRONG, plain and simple.

The supreme court ruled the way you say, that makes it legal but it sure don’t make it right. This is not the first time the supreme court has been WRONG and I’m sure it won’t be the last.

Here is part of the statute that the court upheld, taken from the first sentence of the syllabus of Tennessee v. Garner – 471 U.S. 1 (1985) “A Tennessee statute provides that, if, after a police officer has given notice of an intent to arrest a criminal suspect, the suspect flees or forcibly resists, “the officer may use all the necessary means to effect the arrest.” Since these two evidently just started blasting away it would seem that they had given no “notice of intent to arrest” thus the two women at the very least had their rights violated to the extreme.

It will never be right (it may be legal) but never right, for a cop to shoot an innocent person who is posing no threat to anyone at the time, or to shoot an accused person who is posing no imminent threat to anyone. I don’t care how much case law you can quote your position is completely untenable, at least to reasonable and prudent people, I guess that the reasonable and prudent clause is another exception to normal standards LE is afforded. It is no wonder most people are leery of LE.

It seems there is nothing in POST training that requires you to make sure that the target you are engaging is actually who you think it is even kids with BB guns are even told to be sure of their target before they shoot.

This type of attitude is indicative of Big City Cops (an LA based LE organization) their motto in English is “let them hate so long as they fear”. That is a sad testament to the attitude of a very large number of LE, some members of Big City Cops live right here in the valley, believe it or not.

It is very disheartening to know that my tax money is used to pay people who have so little regard for those who they serve yet will go to such lengths to try to vindicate their “brothers”.

Eastern, you are right they over react.. they say they show up inforce.. to ensure the saftey of all invloved.. They do not care about anyones saftey but their own. If a cop shows up on a call his or her number one goal is to put someone in jail, even if they have to push until someone gets fed up and stands up for their rights.

I for one would like to know how many former LAPD cops we have in the valley. I would imagine that info would be classified or would at the very least require a FOI request to be submitted by a lawyer. I do know for a fact that individual BPD lists on their site as a contact for individuals interested in employment is formerly one of LAPD’s finest.

EDITOR NOTE–If you really want to know, just contact the POST COUNCIL listed in the state pages of the phone book under Idaho State Police. They have all the CERTIFICATIONS which would show past employment for all coppers. You should ask for: “number of officers formerly employed in California,” given the number of agencies there. LAPD probably wouldn’t have many here, but there are no doubt a fair number from the California system.

Josh, Glad to hear a cop say that.. it happens or rarely.. your whole argument about escaping felons is mute.. since these people were no felons and were not fleeing.

I have already said that the law is on your side… the common sence factor (even with the blessing of the supreme court) however is not on your side…

If these guys and the other cops who shot up the other truck dont do a few years in general population it will be a travesty.. oh wait cops dont do time..

Since you are a cop here in the valley what would you guess the amount of Californians in your dept is?

Dave

It probably wouldn’t be a smart move to make that call. I can just imagine the fire storm a simple ligitimate question would cause in light of the current california situation.

Eastern I have to ask this, what are you talking about?

@Josh:

WHAT THE COP PERCIEVES IN THE MOMENT IS THE MESSURING STICK OF RIGHT VS. WRONG?

I think your statement is correct – “My argument only applies to the statement made by David that shooting an escaping, known murderer is an affront to our legal system. I have shown the laws and Supreme Court case law backing my assertion that it is not.”

The problem Josh is the unconstitutional leap which is exploiting the laws/findings you outline: Cops, cop unions, and cop lawyers are too often claiming that cops perceived they faced the scenario you outline… Therefore it’s lawful that they proceeded with a violent attack on someone… even if in the aftermath it is determined to be a wrongful/mistaken/overreaction type police battery and violation of civil rights.

There is an unholy alliance between cops, prosecutors, judges, and the federal justice department which is conspiring to trample the civil rights of people in America… and it all starts with this logic of WHAT THE COP PERCIEVES IN THE MOMENT IS THE MESSURING STICK OF RIGHT VS. WRONG. This unconstitutional logic is the result of the American people failing to control the government… and government officials violating their oath of office. This loophole is being exploited by the thuggery mentality which is so prevalent in American police departments. I’ve even seen police reality TV praising the efficiency of the Russian Secret Police(KGB). Police departments in this country will continue to grow more powerful and unruly if they are not externally restricted by the public.

There is hope: The problem police have in the long-term is this: The base of support for bad police behavior is the American middle-class core. This group is only supportive because it rarely has police contact, sees only the sanitized version of last night’s activities on the TV, and has an out-of-site-out-of-mind attitude about everything. However, two things are happening the past few years. 1) The police have expanded their target population to include some in this group. 2) This group is now able to see the facts with their own eyes via the internet. As a result many upstanding Americans are teaching their children not to trust or support the police due to the corruption which even many “good cops” refuse to change. Even the President of the United States, due to his personal experiences has substantial distrust of cops.

Josh, just because the common interpretation of the law says you can… it does not mean that you should. Legally correct can still be an abysmal failure of oath and duty.

Zippo

Be gentle your use of the term unconstitutional will be an affront to Josh and the rest of LE who read this page. They have a supreme court opinion that says they are right no matter what anyone or anything else says. The constitution be damned.

You said “There is an unholy alliance between cops, prosecutors, judges, and the federal justice department which is conspiring to trample the civil rights of people in America… and it all starts with this logic of WHAT THE COP PERCIEVES IN THE MOMENT IS THE MESSURING STICK OF RIGHT VS. WRONG.
You are exactly right. If a citizen goes to court they are judged after the fact as to whether or not their actions were reasonable and prudent. It seems to be a given, in some circles, that LE will act correctly in all situations, although the evidence shows otherwise. I was taught in a BSU Criminal Justice class (Intro to Policing) taught by a BPD Detective that courts will not examine a cops actions in the same way. His words were to the effect of…the courts will not play arm chair quarter back and decide if the actions in the heat of the moment were correct or not. Sounds real close to what you put in all caps in your post. I still have my notes from class. I wonder why the double standard?

I have said before and I will say again, cops have a tuff job (I have done it as a volunteer). Most people do not like or trust them and that makes it harder. The one thing they do need to remember is most of the reasons people do not like or trust them they have brought on themselves. Feeling like they should not be held to the same standards as regular citizens will drive a bigger and bigger wedge between them and those they are “supposed” to serve.

Well it appears the inevitable outcome of this tragic incident has come to pass. Do I feel that this guy should have shot anyone NO but, it does kinda seem like a summary execution.

When people report hearing LE say over their radios, “Hold until we start mop up with fire.” “Still not ready for fire. There’s a lot of smoldering.” “More ammo going off.” “Fire doing quite well. I’m going to let it go.” It raises alot of questions. What would “Hold until we start mop up with fire” mean? Kind of a funny way of saying, keep the fire dept back until we mop up “IE secure” the situation. Fire doing quite well, I’m going to let it go. There is just something not right about these statements.

wow… no trial… no judge involved… just yup thats the guy… lets kill him…. no wonder people dont trust cops… there is much more to this… most of which will be covered up

EDITOR NOTE–With that we are done! The suspect is dead and the details will play out in the national media. We gave folks their say. COMMENTS CLOSED. Subsequent comments were just blanket “cop bashing” and were not posted.