City Government
Wisconsin Has A better Transportation Idea
October 8, 2009 
Seems like the cheesehead state is getting a lot of attention these days here in Idaho.
Team Dave holds out Kenosha, Wisconsin as the poster child for a Trolley Folly, former Greenbay Packer Bret Favre has everyone’s attention, we got a police chief from the capital city of Madison and now the politicos in Madison come up with a GUARDIAN-type plan for transit. Politicos at all levels have ignored ALL the common sense plans we have offered up in favor of trains, trains, trains. At this point we Boise citizens need to demand an election and see that it is done right–like they plan to do in Wisconsin.
From the CapTimes web in Madison: “Dane County withdrew its funding application to the Federal Transit Administration in December because of the lack of a local funding source for commuter rail, but talk of transit was renewed this summer after Gov. Jim Doyle authorized a Madison-area regional transit authority in his 2010 budget. The authority could levy up to a half-percent sales tax, or an estimated $38 million a year in transit funds, but local officials have said that will not happen until there is a referendum on the tax.”
Not only do the locals want to have “Bus Rapit Transit” (BRT) using buses on existing streets with a designated lane, they have the novel idea of allowing the public to vote! It seems GUARDIAN all the way. We do have a few readers in Madison–honest we do.
Seriously folks, the MADISON PLAN is much more logical than the Trolley Folly being pushed by Team Dave. In fact, such a system may actually cost us a few bucks in taxes, but it will most certainly serve a lot more people. Please read the story from Madison and see how much better it is than a fixed rail novelty ride for downtown. Those Wisconsin cheeseheads can be smart!
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Comments & Discussion
Comments are closed for this post.
Oct 8, 2009, 2:46 pm
Chattanooga, Tennessee operates nine zero-fare electric buses, which have been in operation since 1992 and have carried 11.3 million passengers and covered a distance of 1.9 million miles. They were made by Advanced Vehicle Systems.
http://www.carta-bus.org/routes/elec_shuttle.asp
http://noboisestreetcar.blogspot.com
email me at [email protected]
Oct 8, 2009, 3:15 pm
It seems so logical to have a bus system that covers hundreds of miles and serves thousands of people instead of a downtown trolley. I question what incentive Mayor Bieter has to push this intiative. Rarely does an issue push my buttons like this one has. What can the average citizen like me do to make my voice heard? I have written a letter and voiced a phone call but there has to be something more. I can’t wait for the next election.
EDITOR NOTE–You can demand an election (referendum petition) so the citizens can be heard. The wait for the next election is less than 30 days.
Oct 8, 2009, 3:19 pm
Dave – you’re comparing apples to oranges in so many ways.
Our systems of public finance are completely different (Wisconsin and Idaho).
BRT and the type of rail proposed do two different things.
The TIGER funds that the Mayor and Council applied for won’t cover bus service.
BRT wouldn’t work downtown.
And finally where has the Mayor said that the Trolley is about *transportation*? The trolley is an economic development project.
What we need to know is what economic development objectives they hope to achieve with this project. Why not get a copy of the application they filed?
Oct 8, 2009, 3:55 pm
Chris–
You worked for the city and those councilwomen who side up with team dave. Do you sell your services to them now?
Bieter has repeatedly called the trolley “phase one” of a master transportation plan with additional routes to come. GUARDIAN says any taxes from new development goes to CCDC which has no oversight from elected officials even if some politicos do serve on the board which claims to be corporate and politic unto itself.
Oct 8, 2009, 4:18 pm
The Streetcar Task Force and the CCDC have SPECIFICALLY said this was a transportation project.
“Beginning in fall 2007, the Treasure Valley High Capacity Transit Study has examined how a regional transportation system could fit together that would include a downtown circulator”
Circulator to them means STREETCAR.
“A downtown streetcar is expected to enhance and transform the transportation system”
This is all from their propaganda at:
http://boisestreetcar.org/?page_id=5
Of course, they are ALSO trying to sell it as an economic development idea, which is a complete farce. Please read about the Portland system here:
http://www.newswithviews.com/O'Toole/randal5.htm
http://www.ti.org/FS3.html
Oct 8, 2009, 4:46 pm
Dave, take the blinders off. We are in Idaho. Since when will the legislature give the city “local option” to raise taxes? When snowballs are thrown in the hot place. Your Wisconson plan will never fly here, ever. Because the GOP won’t ever want to be seen raising taxes or giving somebody else the ability to do it.
Oct 8, 2009, 5:42 pm
Chattanooga, Tennessee 11.3 / 1.9 = 5.95 people per mile… How much did that cost? I bet they’re happy they didn’t go for the delux streetcar idea like the mayor wants
Oct 8, 2009, 6:21 pm
Dave, please do yourself a favor and visit Valley Regional Transit’s website and read up on their plan for future bus service (including BRT). BRT is planned for State street and is being seriously weighted in the current high capacity transit analysis. The obstacle is NOT leadership on the city level, it is the nearsightedness of the state legislature. Calling it your plan for transit is megalomaniacal at worst and naive at best.
The trolly is not supposed to be any sort of substitute for a high capacity transit system. It is raining federal money for capital expenditures right now, and (PR contract aside) they city is just putting out a bucket.
EDITOR NOTE–Here is just one of the MANY plans we have offered. Do yourself a favor and get educated on the interest and intelligent comments from GUARDIAN readers. Here is a PURE GUARDIAN plan from start to finish. Bare bones, but we acknowledge that and sought citizens views and it didn’t cost $90,000 to a politically connected PR firm. https://boiseguardian.com/2007/03/22/guardian-solves-bus-woes/
Oct 8, 2009, 7:25 pm
Irene–
I counted at least 5 pages of headlines for “TRANSIT” using the BG search engine at the top of the site.
Dave is a pretty sharp old guy and I think you miss the point in his claiming credit for everything. He certainly knows Bogota Columbia didn’t adopt something from the GUARDIAN…that is supposed to be funny, cute, sarcastic, snide just like DAVE and his use of all those names for cops, judges, and other politicos.
He may be fat and bald, but he ain’t naieve! BTW don’t you think Bieter looks like the BG Dave with his new hairdo?
Oct 8, 2009, 7:39 pm
The Boise Streetcar is MOST certainly being foisted off as a transportation project.
Please see their propaganda at:
http://boisestreetcar.org/?page_id=5
“Treasure Valley High Capacity Transit Study has examined how a regional transportation system could fit together that would include a downtown circulator”
Circulator to THEM means STREETCAR.
“A downtown streetcar is expected to enhance and transform the transportation system”
As for the trolley being put in for economic development, that is laughable. Downtown is already being fully developed without it, and the future Broadway and Capital Blvd. expansions are in the same boat. No one is waiting around for the streetcar to be built. So – WHAT development?
You can get a far different view of the “development” claims that were made for Portland at:
http://www.newswithviews.com/O'Toole/randal5.htm
and
http://www.ti.org/FS3.html
And, I might add, the Little Rock streetcar was put in 8 years after the development in its district was underway.
Oct 8, 2009, 8:39 pm
In response to Ms. Blanchard’s comment, “‘And finally where has the Mayor said that the Trolley is about *transportation*? The trolley is an economic development project.”
Carol, if, as you and the mayor say it is not about transportation, does that mean the folly does not even have to move? Would it be enough to simply park it somewhere down town? I mean, if it is not about transportation, why waste the time tearing up the streets to lay the track? If it has to move, maybe we could haul it around on a truck.
And, if this is about economic development, that doesn’t involve transportation, you and the mayor need to tells us why companies would want to move to a town that is stupid enough to drop $60 million on something that does nothing?
This folly trolley business gets nuttier by the day.
Oct 9, 2009, 6:24 am
On their website at http://boisestreetcar.org, it is most definitely promoted as a transportation project.
The idea that it will bring development into areas that are already developed and/or have plans to be developed is a laugh.
The Little Rock streetcar was not added to their development district until 2004 – the district was started in 1996.
The Portland system development claims have been debunked. See:
http://www.newswithviews.com/O'Toole/randal5.htm
http://www.ti.org/FS3.html
Oct 9, 2009, 9:44 am
I think a big question after reading some of these comments would be, does ACHD had any input into this? The streets and sidewalks belong to them so would they even allow such a project after the City and several fights with them already.
Oct 9, 2009, 10:01 am
I think I should clear up my last, a bus is allowed on streets so a revised bus schedule is easy, so I agree with Dave, but tracks in the roadway needs approval from ACHD, how sure is anyone that they would give approvals for a trolley?
Oct 9, 2009, 1:41 pm
Instead of name calling, silly sayings and extreme overexaggeration on what the proposed trolley can or cannot do, maybe those opposed would find it helpful to put out specifics about why they do not believe the trolley will be a good fit for Boise. I find myself leaning toward the trolley every day after seeing the majority of opposed comments looking like they came straight out of my daughters elementary school.
So you want to sway opinion and educate the masses? Do it! Give me some real information comparing why you think this is a bad idea. I’m not looking forward to one more silly rhyme with trolley or the often quoted trolley to nowhere.
EDITOR NOTE–If you are referring to the GUARDIAN and not the commenters, try this post: https://boiseguardian.com/2009/09/30/bieter-trolley-folly-is-bashed-in-daily-comments/
As for rhymes, we will probably refrain from future use of “Trolley Folly” (which we coined months ago) since Litster has picked it up as his. We are NOT connected to any candidate. Also, the GUARDIAN has been an advocate of voter approval of high ticket expenditures forever and we have a very successful record in that regard.
Oct 9, 2009, 1:50 pm
For those of you who do not think the Boise streetcar is being pushed as a transportation solution, it is being presented as such on their own website at http://boisestreetcar.org.
As for the claims of bringing development, it’s laughable. The downtown area is already developed and/or will be developed without it, as are the Broadway/Capital future streetcar route expansions. No developers in those areas are sitting around waiting for a streetcar to be built.
I talked to one downtown developer whose company has put about $50 million in projects into the Boise area. He does NOT want the streetcar under any circumstances. He told me that the idea that it would bring development was ludicrous. What does he want? A better BUS system. What a surprise.
The same propaganga was used to sell the system in Portland. Unfortunately that’s not what really happened there. Please reference:
http://www.newswithviews.com/O'Toole/randal5.htm
http://www.ti.org/FS3.html
Oct 10, 2009, 2:23 am
Let’s summerize where things stand. Litster-against the trolly. Baumbach-against the trolly. Dunham- agaisnt the trolly. TJ-Doesn’t know. Jordan-for the trolly. Bisterfeldt for the trolly, having voted already to fund it. If any of this is wrong, please clarify. I think Mr. Bisterfeldt is the only one that actually has a recorded vote for the trolly. I am opposed for two big reasons. Funding expense and the constitutionality of committing to long term debt without a vote of the taxpayers. I also see that Baumbach and Litster object on similar grounds. It also seems that the issue is confused in the supporters mind as to whether it is transportation or economic development. How many commuters will ride the two mile track? How many businesses have committed to expand in downtown Boise, IF ONLY THERE WAS A TROLLY? The final rub to the whole thing is “What will need to change to increase ridership on the busses?” Many people support mass transit so the ‘others’ will ride leaving more room for them to drive their cars.
Oct 10, 2009, 12:26 pm
Hubby is having trouble sleeping these days because he finds himself agreeing more and more with (gasp) Dave Frazier!
You are probably too young to remember that Boise used to have trolleys. I don’t remember the whole route, but I know part of it ran down Warm Springs Avenue. Can you see that happening today? I don’t like to have my name in the paper so I haven’t written a “letter to the editor,” but I did call the mayor’s office and expressed my opinion that we have “been there and done that” before.
I explained that I am all for expanding public transportation (my mother and I used to go the movies in the evening and took the last bus home at 9:15 p.m.), but trolleys on fixed tracks are ridiculous. The “aide” I spoke to assured me he would give my message to his honor.
Back in the days when our family first moved to Boise, Collister Road was considered to be the westernmost city street, Franklin Road was farm country, and Warm Springs ended at the Natatorium. Expand the bus system to it can be adjusted to fit the city’s ever-changing population.
Oct 10, 2009, 9:10 pm
riding a bus is just soooo uncool, while riding a train is so hip – yeah, you can either pretend to be 5 years old and living your dream of riding on your toy train or pretend that you are living in some big city and are the mayor of that big city instead of Boise, the little town you were raised in. Yeah, and riding a bus is just like having to take the bus to school instead of having your parents buy you a really cool car that will make the cool kids think that you are more cool than they are. That really is what is behind all of this trolly folly, right Team Dave? Y’all just want to be cool when you feel that you are just geeks who can’t get out of this small town and make it.
Thanks guardian et al for all of your work. It really is amazing at how many people do NOT want this silly trolly!
Oct 14, 2009, 11:50 pm
Thanks, GUARDIAN, for bird-dogging this and so many other issues. Speaking for our entire household, we believe the trolley idea to be the height of foolishness. It seems so obviously foolish that it seems apparent this is all about corruption, i.e. contracts to politically connected friends, real estate speculation and etc, all accomplished with opm (Other People’s Money). Bieter, et al seem determined to have Boise resemble Chicago politics more and more …
Oct 28, 2009, 9:58 am
Hey, greetings from K-Town! Heard you mentioned us. Our streetcars went in ten years ago and we love ’em. Since 2000, tourism in Kenosha went up from $92 million a year to $235 million and there has been a quarter-billion in development along the route. Ask San Francisco why they keep their 9mph cable cars. Don’t let the good times pass you by. Cheers …