City Government

Anti F-35 Post In Interest Of Fair Play

We are providing space to those opposed to the F-35 being based at Gowen Field in the interest of fair play. Various state and local governments have come out in favor of locating the noisy fighter here, but those opposed don’t have access to the public money or forum.

The GUARDIAN will gladly entertain any “on the record” comments from public officials or others who support basing the F-35 in Boise’s densely populated metro area. The information contained in the graphics is from the US Air Force’s own environmental impact statement.

Another map regarding schools can be found by clicking below.

Comments & Discussion

Comments are closed for this post.

  1. Personally, I think the best possible scenario, long term, would be to have the Guard move its base way out south. I know that this is something that has been discussed.

  2. Jason Walker
    Feb 21, 2012, 3:24 pm

    Can larger versions of the images be provided, the current ones are hard to read, and clicking on them does not provide an enlarged version.

    EDITOR NOTE–Sorry, we will try to provide a link as well.

  3. Like Mountain Home?

  4. I am not trying to be non military or anti progressive but as a home owner in Columbia Village I am very concerned about the “not suitable for residential use” classification. I have started to speak with people about this in my neighborhood and no one seems to know this is happening. Does anyone know who the organization is behind the “save our valley now”.org website?

  5. What in the world are the people thinking when they promote basing the F-35 at the Boise Airport? The noise complaints will be endless. The best example I can offer is El Torro Marine Air Base. Around the clock ops and expensive homes in the area put a big fat target on it when bases were closed all over the country in 1994.

    Everything the Marine Corps had was flying day and night. The base was in the middle of orange groves for years and years but growth and demand for housing proved to be the driving force and good planning gave way to developers and what I like to call TOILET TERRACE HOMES taking over the area.

  6. I come from an Air Force family: of my three uncles and one aunt who served in the AF, two were combat pilots. My own father was a navigator/WSO and both of my brothers as well as I were active duty Air Force. I grew up on Air Force Bases watching front line fighters fly sorties day and night. I have worked as a licensed civilian aircraft mechanic and am a licensed pilot. I love airplanes – the look, the sound, the smell, the dirt – everything about them, love ‘em. I am proud of mine and my family’s service and am proud of our armed forces. I deeply appreciate the difficult and dangerous job with which they are tasked. So, understand: it is not lightly that I say that Gowen field is not the place to station the F-35.

    The FAA, airlines, and airliner manufacturers have worked for decades to quiet civilian aircraft and develop flight techniques to lessen noise. So successful they have been that large airliners can take off and land at Gowen field almost unnoticed to just about all of the Boise and the Treasure Valley but the residents in the immediate vicinity. Those who may think that only a small area will be affected by noise from the F-35 are wrong. Nowhere in Boise will you be able to escape the noise – not downtown, in the foothills, the North End, Columbia Village, the Bench, Meridian – nowhere.

    A transient situation where fighters operate out of Gowen, such as last week or a few summers ago as with the Oregon ANG, is understandable and tolerable. But the noise that will be generated by flight and maintenance operations on this scale with this aircraft will be almost continuous and it will be permanent. If Idaho wants the F-35, then the proper location to base it is Mtn. Home AFB – it is no accident that the facility was located where it is.

  7. Bench Warmer. Thank you so much for your honest comments. Very well said.

  8. Andrea. I am one of the spokesmen for the SaveOurValleyNow organization and website. We are a group trying to get understandable and balanced information out to the public on the F-35 issue. Our elected officials are pushing this project behind the scenes, but they are completely unwilling to provide facts, encourage public debate, or discuss the EIS conclusions. I am willing to come to any meeting at any time to provide accurate and balanced information on the F-35 impacts that come directly out of the 1,200 page Air Force Environmental Impact Statement released in January. A great way to get a balanced view of the F-35 project is to have presentations by both the Air Force and the SaveOurValleyNow.org group.

  9. Monty. Thank you for your reply. The information provided your website was presented to the Columbia Village Home Owner Association Board on Tuesday 02/21 and they were not receptive. The board believes this is not a serious proposition and the likelihood of it happening is slim. They say the City has to post public notices, send out public mailers and hold public hearings before anyone needs to get concerned and since the City has not done any of those things our concerns are unnecessary (hysterical and anti military was implied in my opinion). The board even went as far as to say the upcoming February 27, 28, 29 meetings are not sponsored by “officials” but are just put on by citizens who are unnecessarily concerned. Can you please set the record straight, who is sponsoring the meetings in February? and will “save our valley now” be present at the meeting?

  10. For anyone intersted there is a book called Desert Wings: Controversy in the Idaho Desert by Niels Sparre Nokkentved. The book was written back in the 80′s when the Airforce attempted to take a million plus acres of Idaho land south of Mt. Home and turn it into airforce training ground (for bombing and distruction). The book is very informative.
    The main person behind the opposition to the Airforce plan was a retired career military man who knew an additional training faciltiy was not needed but was instead just a poorly thought out plan by government officials. The way I see it, the same abuse applies this time — this is not a matter of “pro or con military”, so don’t be fooled by attempts to package it that way. This plan is a matter of government officials not representing the best interests of the people of this State, officials pushing the personal intersts and agendas of those with power and money. Remember, we will be the ones left with a ruined city, a place no one wants to live because the quality of life is undesirable. And remember there are more suitable places for this training station to be located.

  11. Does any one remember how up in arms everyone got in the early 90′s when the valley was inundated by another undesireable influx. I remember hearing were coming get over it or get out.

    Much as with that influx the AF will come if they decide too, and those that oppose will be told the same thing those of us who were here pre 90, get over it or get out.

    Mini Micron ville was built at the end of the run way, you knew it when you bought there, did you not think the airport would never have more or louder traffic?
    People who buy in a air traffic pattern have no right to complain when the amount of traffic grows, just as those who bought next to the cheese factory have no right to complain about noise from the factory, or someone who buys property in farm country have no fight to complain about farm noises or smells.

    Take responsibility for your own actions, not everyone will bow to you.

  12. Two public meetings are scheduled: Monday February 27, 5:00 p.m. – 8:00 p.m. Capital City. (Just read the box on the left side of the flyer for times and dates of the official meetings sponsored by the USAF).

  13. Andrea, the public meetings on February 27th, 28th, and 29th are being sponsored by the Air Force as a requirment of the EIS process. SaveOurValleyNow.org will not be allowed to present anything at the meetings, but we will be there passing out informational flyers, asking questions, and pointing out EIS deficiencies for the record.

    There are a couple of misconceptions about the F-35 Draft EIS that need to be clarified. The first is the idea that the F-35s are unlikely to ever come to Boise because another site will be selected instead. That is not the case at all. The integrated review of four possible F-35 locations, Boise, Tucson, Luke, and Holloman is not a “winner take all” contest. All four sites are being pre-scoped for pre-approval and stockpiling for activation as F-35s become available. Eglin AFB in Florida already has F-35s located there. Luke has been identified as the next preferred alternative to be activated in the 2013/2014 time frame. How quickly Boise, Tucson, and Holloman get activated depends on how fast Lockheed Martin can push the jets out the door and how many each base is allowed to accept. Once the Final EIS is issued, the stage is set for quick activation as the locations are needed. And since Eglin just had their maximum F-35 numbers reduced from 144 to 59 due to noise lawsuits, more sites are likely to be needed sooner rather than later. So don’t allow yourself to become complacent by assurances that they will never come to Boise. Now is the time to get our questions answered – not after it is too late to stop the deployment?

  14. http://images.bimedia.net/documents/U.S.+Air+Force+public+hearings+flier+%28PDF%29.pdf

    There’s an official post by the U.S. Air Force, looks official to me. Maybe our elected officials are hoping that people will keep their heads buried in the dirt.

  15. Monty, If I may suggest that a link be added to the saveourvalleynow.org website announcing that the Guardian is providing this space for public forum. People are having trouble finding these comments and learning about the real possibility of this change to our home.

  16. Jason – you can download a high-resolution copy of the F-35 Facts and Impacts flyer here: http://www.saveourvalleynow.org/F-35_Facts_and_Impacts_-_rev_8_1_.pdf The information in the flyer is taken from the F-35 Draft Environmental Impact Statement itself.

    BenchWarmer – I appreciate the context for your conclusions. Your comments suggest that the F-35 coming to Boise is not an issue of patriotism or of economic stimulus but one of common sense. Is it reasonable, for example, for Boise to one day find itself in the position of Valparaiso, Florida? Unlike our elected officials and those in Tucson, Arizona (also on the short list of sites for the F-35) who are quietly if not openly courting the F-35, the city fathers of Valparaiso took the Air Force to court when the noise from F-35 overflights proved too intrusive.

    Is it reasonable to exact a penalty of extreme noise on more than 10,000 citizens in our community? Timothy Hogan, PhD, studied the impact of the F-35 on home values in El Mirage, Arizona and found home values under the flight path would be depressed, with a $200 million cumulative toll exacted on the community over time in lost taxes and lost economic development: http://www.azcentral.com/ic/community/pdf/luke-air-force-base-noise-study-0414.pdf What about the four schools, thirteen day care centers, two parks and seven miles of I-84 that would be subjected to extreme noise under the F-35? Our elected officials have not publicly commented on the impacts to our community as revealed in the EIS but they should.

    The decision to base 72 F-35s in Boise doesn’t lie with our local leaders but you’d hope they would exercise their duty and their historic inclination to use common sense on our behalf. An un-defined economic stimulus from bringing F-35s to the Boise airport coming at the expense of long-term depressed housing prices and health problems associated with noise pollution, however, isn’t evidence of common sense. As with our civic leaders, the decision to bring F-35s to Boise also doesn’t lie with our local Air Guard. They will be presenting the local public meetings as honest boosters of the F-35 but they are not the ones we need to convince. The good news is, we don’t need to pick a fight with our friends in our local Air Guard.

  17. Having spent most of my 20 years AF career working on fighter type aircraft I do not think a city, any city is the appropriate place to base fighter jets. The noise id too great and the distractions are too many. Mt Home, Cannon AFB near Clovis N.M and Beale AFB near Marysville in the dredded state of Cali. Are perfect places for these type jets.
    That being said I don’t understand how anyone who bought property near the end of the runway in this case a military/civilian runway can get upset about aircraft noise. Missions for the military change and with that comes the utilization of different types of equipment, if Southwest decides to buy noisier aircraft and fly them out of here are you going to stand up and tell them no? I guess I will never understand people I remember people on Eagle Island a few years ago complaining about the river flows being too high and their houses were flooding, if you buy a house on an “island” in the middle of a river it might flood, if you buy a house at the end of a runway you’re going to hear jets.
    The base (Gowen Field) was used to train pilots during WWII it’s been here longer than 90% of the city, the city encroached on the base, the base didn’t encroach on the city. Try to remember that.

  18. The funny thing is how many people have been taken by the false information being put out, inculding the Boise Guradian.

    The original creater of the website that doesn’t want the F35′s went to the AF PDF page and used the information for Mountain Home including the map for Boise.

    They didn’t take into account distance, size, surrounding area. They just made the page to look the way they wanted, and all the sheep followed.

    Good job guarding Boise.

    EDITOR NOTE– If you have information or documents to the contrary, please share.

  19. No Jet Noise!
    Feb 24, 2012, 10:44 pm

    Rick, It will ruin life for about 5 miles around, especially on inversion or overcast days… not just “near” the runway.

    Airlines are prohibited from operating noisy jets to places like Boise. Problem is the noise law is not applied to the USAF. It should be with all the tax-free empty space they already have tied up in the middle of nowhere all over the nation.

    Boise is their training base target so they can give their training pilots and foreign visitors a nice place to live in Meridian instead of boring little MHAFB, and all the social issues of such a small town.

    Team Dave is ok with this because he wants to play with trains in a bankrupt downtown and just needs a shot of green to do it. They are also overbuilt on capacity at the airport by about 3 times and feel kind stupid about that. So they are disparate to use all that pavement before the feds stop sending them money to maintain it.

  20. Robert, go to this link and look at figure BO 3.2-3 Scenario 3 under the Boise PDF file. Farther down BO 3.2-6 is the Mountain home. They look similar but they are NOT the same.
    http://www.f-35atrainingeis.com/index.html

  21. Robert – You raise a good point about qualifying the noise contour map in the Facts and Impacts flyer. The noise contour in the flyer was traced directly from the noise contour map created by the Air Force on pages 14 and 15 of the EIS Executive Summary.

    It’s tempting to imagine that we enlarged the impacted area in the map designated Not Suitable For Residential Use. No such luck. We matched the noise contour exactly and it is alarming just as it stands.

  22. No Jet Noise

    You are right it will be loud close to the airport, ruining life for 5 miles is a just typical cali theatrics, having spent YEARS living A LOT closer to a flight line than 5 miles I can guarantee that.
    It boils down to this, in my opinion, people moved close to an airport/military base now they want to complain about the noise’s associated with living that close to the flight path. I personally have no compassion for you; you did it to yourselves now you want others to bow to your desires.
    Ya they built the airport too big, would have been better to just keep adding on every 10 years or so, things will be cheaper then, kinda like the cali roads, BTW how did that work out for you all? Oh wait that’s part of the reason you all moved out isn’t it?

  23. Is it unreasonable to wonder about our priorities? We will fight for the rights of bugs, rats, green-stuff and worms in the soil that live out in the middle of nowhere, that their life not to be disturbed by military training, and yet we look at 10,000 plus neighboring homes and tell them to bad live with it. I guess their quality of life is of less regard than the previously mentioned. This will affect the entire valley, shouldn’t we be working together to protect it?

  24. Funny you should mention the critters on the Endangered Species list, Lin. If there was anything on the list living among the 10,000 citizens that will be impacted by F-35 overflights there would be all sorts of federal wheels starting to turn to protect them. Down in the Tuscon area those wheels are starting to turn on behalf of the rare Sonoran pronghorn antelope living in the Barry Goldwater training range. 95% of the fighter pilots that fought in the Persian Gulf War trained at the Goldwater range.

  25. To me it comes down to this. The base was there when these people moved in, now because people chose to live in that place now the base must bow to the desires of those who encroached on them? I just think that since people knowingly and willingly moved into the flight path of the base/airport they have no right to complain about the noise. If you are concerned about jet noise don’t buy near an airport. I have read on here that life will be ruiened for 5 miles…. not true…. I have read that the engines spit raw fuel… not true…. do your homework before you buy… if you dont….dont complain…. I hope they station a hundred of the jets there… maybe the population in the valley will go back down to where it should be…

  26. Kevin is appears that it is now our mission to find that endangered species, “Home Owner” is not applicable. :-)

    The trouble with public discourse, especially in these comment forums, is instead of looking for solutions or compromise, even intelligent, knowledgeable exchange of information, there is always someone who brings nothing to the table but their own ego and rancor. The entire valley will be affected.

  27. John Q Publique
    Feb 25, 2012, 1:34 pm

    First, I’d suggest we all support bedding the planes down at Luke AFB. That’s the preferred alternate for the Air Force. http://www.f-35atrainingeis.com/resources/04%20F-35A%20Poster%20-%20PA%20and%20Alternatives%20-%20FINAL%20-%202012-1-11.pdf

    Second, there are four scenarios (baseline, 24, 48, 72 aircraft) evaluated for Gowen Field. I suggest we make comments supporting the baseline or keeping things as they are now (A-10) scenario as having the least environmental impact on the Valley. My second choice would be 24 aircraft one since that scenario reduces the NSFRU area. Remember this is an Environmental Impact Statement.

    Third, we need to comment on the other three scenarios FACTUALLY. Support your comments with information from the Draft EIS itself or other sources you can reference. For example, there is a comment in the document which appears to say that under one scenario air quality in the Valley may actually DECREASE.

    Fourth, we need to ask to see all noise contour lines – not just the 65 dB. There is a comment in the DEIS that West Jr High would experience a noise level approaching 100 dB yet no comments are made about Frank Church High School, the Vo – Tech Building, or the Boise Schools Administration Building – all of which are in the same immediate area. And there are no comments about noise in the neighborhood immediately (about 1/2 of a mile) south of West Jr. High over which all types of aircraft pass at about 500 ft on their approach to the airport.

    Fifth, if you testify, be prepared to make all your comments within a time limit – maybe 3 minutes. Rehearse you comments before hand.

    Lastly, download (http://www.f-35atrainingeis.com/EisDocument.html) (Chapter 4) and read the DEIS for Gowen Field. It’s about 160 pages. There’s also some supporting tables and other information that can be downloaded. Inform yourself. Make informed comments. You have until March 14, 2012 to submit comments either by email or snail mail.

  28. The problem with these type formats is not the rancor but the arrogance. Some post blatant untruths and purport them as fact in an effort to ensure that their position is the only “logical” position to take.
    It sounds as though you all have found a coach who will lead you through your testimony to ensure that the one true voice of the valley is heard. He seems to have already got the sheep rounded up and given them their marching orders, along with step by step instructions.
    My major problem with people like you is you want “compromise” and “knowledgeable exchange of information” but then let everyone who opposes you just how wrong they are. You sound like voters who scream for budgets cuts… just don’t touch MY entitlements.

  29. John Q Publique, Thank YOU Thank YOU..

  30. No Jet Noise!
    Feb 25, 2012, 5:23 pm

    Rick, you are out of CG. It is funny to watch.

    Those few jets making an orbit of Boise last week were at 10,000 feet and very low power, but still caused people all over the valley to complain.

    Has not been a noisy gaurd base since 1996, and then it was just a hand full of old F-4s making a few flights a day at mid-day. This is a louder airplane, many many more of them, 18 hours a day.

  31. I suggest any of you take a trip to Mt Home set in the parking lot of what used to be Scrubbies Smokehouse… well within the 5 miles purported to be made uninhabitable and just listen to the F15E’s taking off and landing. The F 35 is supposed to be louder yes at 50k pounds thrust the motor has to be the shit, but at the distance Scrubbies is from the runway normal speech will still be able to be heard. Go see for your selves before you get your knickers in a bunch.

  32. I am out of CG. Not really my CG’s fine. How long did you spend in fighter units? It is funny to listen to you guys whining. You say they will fly 18 hours a day, full up units don’t fly 18 hours a day. How many of you who know so much about military ops have ever been in the military? Most days first goes will be around 8 or 9 am with last downs around 7 or 8 pm, I didn’t go to school in cali…. but I don’t think that’s 18 hours. There will be night flying about once a quarter then last downs will be somewhere around mid night and will probably last about a week. I looked at your little flyer who ever made that up has a vivid imagination; the numbers make no sense at all. 72 planes = 3 possibly 4 squadrons, flying a 10 turn 8 turn 6 each you do the math.
    Go to Mt Home see how a flying base works then if you are still against it so be it, at least then you will be basing your opinion on fact rather than fiction.

  33. Great suggestions, John Q. Referring to the F-35 EIS is especially useful since it represents the Air Force’s point of communication with us as a community that would be affected by F-35s coming to the Boise airport. It is troubling that legal experts here and in Arizona and New Mexico conclude that the EIS is misleading and incomplete, thus failing in its purpose. A group in New Mexico was successful in getting an extension of their EIS because it was unclear. A group in Arizona is getting ready to attempt the same thing. We have a case for trying for an extension as well.

    For instance, Rick and John Q both mention 72 F-35s coming to Boise. According to the EIS the Air Force has decided to consider only three squadrons of F-35s—72 aircraft—in their search for bases because anything less would not be cost effective. Instead of removing the B1 and B2 scenarios (24 and 48 aircraft) from the EIS, however, the Air Force offers a straw man solution of leaving the lesser numbers in the study, confusing the issue. Yes, Rick, the EIS states that 72 F-35s would make 50 sorties a day in Boise for a total of 14,000 in a year. I agree with you—in an urban community like Boise it makes no sense whatsoever.

    Another weakness of the draft F-35 EIS is that the only noise data offered in the study was modeled in software instead of by a team of audio engineers going out and physically measuring the noise. An egregious flaw in the EIS is that the 65 DNL noise contour that the EIS uses is a sleight-of-hand built on averaging periods of ordinary noise with moments of loud noise. It is disingenuous for the Air Force to average the noise level of no jets flying—including at night—with the extremely loud noise events of F-35s flying overhead and call it actionable data. The Air Force uses the same averaging scheme when describing the average noise levels inside impacted schools.

    DNL numbers and the noise contours created from them probably are the result of accurate calculations but without a reference to the actual noise levels of F-35 overflights they mis-direct our attention away from the real issue of repeated moments of intrusively-loud noise. If you’re interested, ask the Air Force for Lmax data that describe the actual noise levels of the F-35.

    We all get to believe who we will, Rick. You don’t have to convince those opposing the F-35 coming to Boise and they don’t have to convince you. Forums like this do help us all better understand the issues. Both sides should share their views at the public hearings next week or directly via email. Your suggestion that we go listen to actual jets in Mt. Home is exactly the kind of real-world data we’re hoping to get out of the Air Force.

  34. Rick, have you read any of the Draft EIS on the Air Force website? I suggest the Executive Summary, Section 4 (Boise specific), and the Noise Appendix. Our Flyer is taken directly from information in the EIS. We can prove every point on the flyer comes from the EIS. On the SaveOurValleyNow.org website is a document that footnotes each point on the flyer. Have you looked at our website? Where do you get your “facts?”

  35. Monty, I get my facts from spending over 20 years in the AF. I spent much of that time on the flight line working on aircraft ranging from F111’s to F15E’s and F16 C/D’s as an engine mechanic (the part where all the noise comes from). I lived on base for a good deal of that time much closer to the flight line and runway than ANYONE in Boise will be living.Were those aircraft loud yes, will the F35 be louder yes, but not at the distance the general public in Boise will be living.
    I guess it comes down to this, as I have said twice already, go to Mt Home stand 2 miles from the runway and listen you will find that your flyer which states that “the area all the way to Federal way would be unsuitable for residential use” is simply not true.
    313 people who live inside your pink area are no more likely to have increased hearing loss, and you’re flying numbers and burner excursions are ridiculous. I don’t care what the EIS says.
    Try experiencing something for yourself, just because something is written doesn’t make it so. Those who have lived it know better,
    I, as I have said before, don’t think the planes should be stationed here, expand Mt Home and base them there. What I don’t agree with is the misinformation being used to recruit more people to you’re camp.

  36. Agreed the F35′s should not be stationed in an area where 25% of the Idaho population lives. No one is being recruited. I read the grueling/confusing report and the information that is being bantered about is what the EIS states. Emotional preference will not support our desires, nor will your personal knowledge give you any bonus points. We are limited to comments on the information that the EIS presented. Good, Bad, wrong, miss-leading etc. So what is the best way to present, represent an express this common goal to the local authorities who would like to make this a beddown for the F35’s. (what does the city get $$$$ wise?) And once the stage is set for the F-35′s will there be more and more?

  37. Rest assured that I will help launch a class action suit against the Air Force for destroying my property values and life style. We’ll make it hot for you! Why should tax payers fund your polluting flyovers when there is barely enough money for schools. Let’s face it. America can no longer afford an Air Force. I say, keep the football team, but dismantle the rest of the operation. You want to choke the life out of our children by crop dusting them with aviation poison! Shame on you! Stay out of the Treasue Valley! You should be ashamed of yourselves for even flying such obsolete junk. END WAR NOW!

  38. Economist Kevin E. Cahill, PhD, has just release an expert report on the F-35 Draft Environmental Impact Statement and finds serious flaws in the document.

    In his words: “The socioeconomic analysis contained in the Air Force’s [DEIS] is fundamentally flawed and grossly insufficient. The DEIS cannot possibly be considered reliable or informative in any way with respect to the true socioeconomic impact of the F-35A Pilot Training Center on the Boise community.

    The expert report highlights the following issues, among many others:
    1)The methodology used by the Air Force ignores the possibility of negative impacts to the economy;
    2)The Air Force fails to conduct any analysis with respect to impacts on quality of life and productivity; and
    3)The Air Force fails to conduct any kind of real-world socioeconomic impact analysis based on places that already deal with extreme noise.”

    The complete text of Dr. Cahill’s report is now available: http://www.saveourvalleynow.org/Expert_Report_by_Kevin_E_Cahill_-_DRAFT_-_02-26-12_1_.pdf

  39. nothing like the non-stop sound of the hideously loud F35 fighter jets tearing up the air to cram the industrial war machine’s complete domination of mankind, and their need to force fear and anxiety upon every man woman and child. welcome to the new world order.

  40. Ah, the sound of freedom. Love it. Perhaps if the USAF would send three or four F-35s to Boise for a week of flying, then we the people could make up our own minds. I’m sure many of us would salute them and say thanks as they flew overhead. Pete

  41. Outstanding idea, Peter!
    Please bring in one or a few F35′s for a “demo day”. If there is no excess noise problem, the Air Force should be happy…even anxious to demonstrate that the F-35 noise opponents are wrong. Shut up and fly it. We can make up our own minds based on the experience and stop the endless nagging in forums and meetings. A month ago something took off, orbited North over the city and flew away to the West. it was loud…REALLY LOUD. I wondered at the time if that was a stealth F-35 demo to see if it garnered any complaints. I’m well away from the airport but ongoing exposure to noise like that one would have me hopping mad

  42. No Jet Noise!
    Feb 27, 2012, 10:04 pm

    It is important to understand that this is about making Boise a training base or not. The F-35 looks like it may never be built, but they will still want to fly some other noisy fuel sucking beast over our town. Say NO to the expansion for a training base.

  43. The F-35 has the power to take off in any direction I believe. A little common sense would have the pilots taking off in the direction away from the City and would come out of “burner” as soon as they reach 2000′ perhaps and climb to their FL using the enormous power they have. Every takeoff does not have to come over the Cities with full burner going until they reach their FL. It’s showboating to think otherwise. A little common sense would go a long way here. It can be compared to the Harley Riders with their illegal and excessively noisy exhaust systems drawing attention to them–Hey, look at us!!

    There will also be engine replacements and an accompaning engine trim at times. While in the Air Force at Paine Field, WA I could hear the F-102′s on the trim pad 14 miles away at my home in North Seattle under certain wind conditions.

    Think of another location folks. I tolerated the excessive aircraft engine noise for 20 years and 22 days because I had to. We have a choice and now is the time to forbid it from happening.

  44. Recently I met some people who just moved to Boise. They had no ties to this area at all. How they ended up here was from researching the best place to live in America. Boise was on several top 10 places to live. They have only been in Boise for a couple of months now and they have even heard of the F-35s coming and are very concerned. I live in Columbia Village which has one of the largest home owners association in the state of Idaho. My family and I love the area but if the F-35s come then we will seriously contemplate moving to another area of Boise, which may still be affected by the F-35s. I really don’t want to move just because of some airplanes. Boise is one of the best places to live and I want to keep it that way.

  45. well this discussion has degraded to a point where it is a joke..

    new world order..”saluting” Jets as they fly over… obsolete junk….

  46. At the first public hearing last night, Jim, it caught my attention the number of vets who avowed their allegiance to the military, past and present, but strongly argued for basing the F-35 somewhere besides an urban center like Boise. Sadly, a number of those gentlemen described experiencing hearing loss as a result of their service and how that was part of their opposition to bringing the F-35 here.

    While the news clip below paints a balanced picture of those supporting the F-35 and those opposed to it the folks opposed greatly outnumbered those in favor. http://www.kboi2.com/home/video/140673573.html

    There is another public hearing tonight at the Boise Conference Center on Vista (the old Holiday Inn)running from 5:00 to 8:00 pm. Everyone is invited to speak their mind on the F-35 for three minutes apiece.

  47. Jim

    Trimming jet engines is a thing of the past….. has been for several years… on fighter jets anyway… fighter jets dont use burner to their assigned FL on a regular basis… you are right common sense would go along way here…too bad most people are not using any

  48. Jim DuFrain
    Feb 28, 2012, 1:09 pm

    Rick,

    And you know fighter jet engines require no trimming after an engine change how?

    I retired in 1973 and it was not a thing of the past then, I continued to work for Boeing for 21 years and engine trims were still required then for all airplanes. I participated in some of them.

    I now live in the south end of Nampa and there are times the fighters will come directly over the city and turn north with burner still on. It is only when they reach a point perhaps 5 – 10 miles north of here they come out of burner. You can no longer see the airplane but you can hear the noise. Very noisy and very irritating, even with my engine noise damaged ears!

  49. The fact is Boise Air Terminal is simply an unacceptable location for the propossed plan. Gowen field is NOT and should NOT be turned into an active duty AFB which is what this will essentially accomplish. The fact is most AF Bases are distanced from the local civilian population center for the many reasons – one of them being the issue of NOISE. The argument of “you should have known better when you bought your house next to an airport” is correct if we are complaining of existing commerical or Air Guard activity. I knew this when I purchased my home in Columbia Village and accepted this fact – HOWEVER, I NEVER would have expected that Gowen field would be promoted as a location to house 60-70 Active Duty Air Force fighters flying at all ours 300-365 days a year!

    If by chance these planes do end up here you bet your ass I will be starting a class action lawsuit.

    In the meantime, I ask all of you to please submit your written opposition at the following link:
    http://www.f-35atrainingeis.com/Commenting.html

    Comments are only being accepted until March 14th. If you don’t at least voice your opposition via written comment, then don’t bother complaining!

  50. Jim
    How do I KNOW that, because I was a Jet Engine Mechanic in the AF for 16 years and I worked for Raytheon Aerospace for 3 ½ years after retiring from the military on a Contract Field Team. I’ve probably tore down, built up and ran more jet engines than anyone in this valley. I have well over 1000 and probably closer to 2000 hours of engine run time under my belt when you total it up that’s how.
    Since 1992 I have had the privilege of attending both Pratt and Whitney and General Electric factory jet engine courses, both were taught by some of the same engineers who designed the Pratt F100pw229 in the F15E and the GE F110-129 used in the F16 C/D and even the U2’s which was re engined in the early 90’s to the GE F118-100” NONE” of those aircraft are even capable of being manually trimmed. Variants of those engines are in aircraft ranging from those mentioned too F18’s F117’s B1’s B2’s just to name a few.
    What type of aircraft did you trim when you worked for Boeing? My guess swabbie jets or B52’s OLD OLD KC135’s in the 90’s even the KC was re engine to the CFM 56 another non trim engine.
    How much run time do you have?

  51. Jim DuFrain
    Feb 28, 2012, 9:38 pm

    Rick,

    Very impressive resume! I applaud your work history.

    Given the time frame I gave you should know that I was not referring to swabbie jets or B-52′s, although I did work on B-52 while in the Air Force. I joined the 747 support group at line number 225 and stayed there for 8 years before transferring to Staff Avionics and Electrical Engineering. I sat in the right seat during several engine trims, or what I remember to be an engine trim. The home owners on the opposite side of the runway were always complaining of the engine noise. Boeing made a ruling that there would be no engine runs after 10:00 PM. I have contacted the ex Factory Supervisor for his thoughts. I will wait for his answer before conceding.

  52. No Jet Noise!
    Feb 28, 2012, 10:33 pm

    To all the Team Dave voters: He’s not listening to you either is he? Your NorthEnder homes will shake from noise and your air will foul with jet smoke too.

    Team Dave will not talk in public about this. Only a junior underling from the airport has been given a brief script to talk from.

    Rick, 50 flights a day is about 15,000 gallons a day of fuel burn at ground level and at least 100,000 gallons of fuel burned each day overall in our trainig area. Are those numbers about right?

  53. No Jet Noise!
    Feb 28, 2012, 11:50 pm

    “Airports are among the greatest sources of local air pollution. A major airport’s idling and taxiing planes can emit hundreds of tons of VOCs and NOx annually. John F. Kennedy International Airport is the second largest source of VOCs in New York City. LaGuardia is among the major sources of NOx…” (link to doc)

    http://ehp03.niehs.nih.gov/article/fetchArticle.action?articleURI=info:doi/10.1289/ehp.971051300

  54. KELLY SUMMERS
    Feb 29, 2012, 1:53 am

    MAN, U GUYS RGUE AN AWFUL LOT ABOOUT HOW MUCH YOU BOTH KNOW, I JUST KNOW THEY ARE ALL LOUD, GO FLY OVER DESERT AREA LEAVE US ALNE IN BOISE.

  55. No Jet noise

    MY guess is the jet holds about 30k pounds of fuel that’s about 4500 gallons 50 flights a day would use between 150k and 200k gallons. If the jet does hole 30k pounds those numbers are probably low by just a bit. I don’t mean to come off like a know it all… but the other side is exaggerating things a lot…. I’m just trying to put out more of the truth

  56. Jim

    Having never worked “trash haulers” aka cargo jets I dont know. I was trying to think of military jets boeing would have had anything to do with.

  57. Why is there no news report in the Statesman about the findings of the EIS, Like the sound print or even covering the meetings? And if it is in there please tell me where? Thanks

    EDITOR NOTE–What difference does it make! That’s why the GUARDIAN exists–to share what the legacy media misses or refuses to cover.

  58. I received an answer from my one-time supervisor and now retired Boeing Factory Manager early this morning. I’ll include his comments as I think they are interesting.

    Bill Blansett says: It has been so long ago for me to remember all of the details, but if I am correct, on the new engines, we only confirmed and recorded the data, but there was little to do or adjust. It was believed that the test runs and adjustments at the engine manufacturers were performed in a more controlled environment and better adjusted than on the airplane. Replacement fuel controls and other major components were checked and “trimmed” if required. In my mind, there were fewer requirements to actually hang all of the remote trim equipment on the engines as we did for so many years.

    Oh, I can still remember the agonizing days of the older B-52 engine trims in Wichita, where I stood crouched under those engines and tried to loosen the trim set screws and watch the manifold gauges at the same time. This was with the blast of hot air from across the oil coolers burning my arms and my brain rattling from the vibration. Then the adjustment when the water injection was turned on was almost unbearable. It took years for the company to finally develop the remote electric screw driver and control box (which only worked half the time).. Then, when you had an engine surge (backfire), it was very unnerving. The larger TF-33 engines were much better, but still required the remote trim. The fan bypass air would make it impossible and dangerous to be that close to the engine under power.

    By the time we got to the P&W JT 9D engine on the 747, The trim equipment was much better, but we had many problems to help wear it out, especially the terrible surge control valves that were prone to fail. End of comments.

    It appears that a major component change, (fuel control etc.) might still require an engine trim. I am still waiting for an answer from Pratt and Whitney. If so it will make a lot of difference on the noise at ground level. That is what I am trying to solve for, and not to impress anyone with my knowledge.

  59. Did someone mention air pollution. Wonder what the dioxin level and other pollutents will be from the shiny new incinerator Dynamis is going to build at Hidden Hollow
    Burning tires, depends and baby diapers must have some negative effect on our pristine air quality

  60. Jim

    There is a vast difference between the engines in a fighter and a big jet. You talk about water injection as far as I know the B52 and KC 135 with J57′s were the only jets to use water. I don’t think water has ever been used on a fighter…. I know for a fact nothing newer than an F 4 has used water. I have changed more than 1 fuel control on F100pw229 engines and they DO NOT reguire a trim….there are NO adjustments possible on the engine and I have Pratt lititure to prove that. A fuel control change on an F15E requires atleast when I worked the an idle run with a CEDS box hooked up to do a real time read, the aircraft is not tied down and there are no burner excursions required. As I said I don’t know about airliners and bombers what I do know is we are talking about state of the art engines, not ones designed in the 50′s and 60′s ie J 57,J 58, TF30 TF33, JT8D . It would not make sense for Pratt to revert to a non DEEC controlled engine after all the advances made with the F100, F119 engine families.

    EDITOR NOTE–Let’s call a truce on the tech stuff. None of the rest of us understand or appreciate it. Please keep the discussion more general.

    We need to compare apples to apples here, not a Porsche to a VW bus.

  61. Done….

    Generally speaking…. fighter jets should NOT be stationed near city’s… city’s should not grow around airports/military bases…if the military expands question them….. if the city grows too close to the base stop them… 313 people will NOT go deaf from the F35… jet engines do NOT spew raw fuel…

    What I think you need to be more concerned with is Vertical takeoff and landing…. just as loud if not louder and longer duration

  62. Editor, please forgive… the question was not meant to a slam. I’m grateful the Guardian is doing it’s thing. Thank you!

    EDITOR NOTE–My response was not intended to elicit sympathy. We share your desire for the legacy press to do more, but alas, those days seem gone forever.

  63. Lin – Monty Mericle gave an interview with the Statesman yesterday. That said the Guardian has been one of the few public points of information and conversation about the F-35 for weeks. As Dave alluded to we’ve reached out to a number of local media entities with only modest response so far. Thank you Guardian!

    At the second public hearing last night those testifying against the F-35 coming to Boise outnumbered those in favor 9 to 1. The testimony of economist, Dr. Kevin Cahill, PhD, that the DEIS is “fundamentally flawed and grossly insufficient” leaves us as citizens without a meaningful way to judge the environmental and socioeconomic impact of the F-35. Translation: it’s probably worse than we think.

    It would be interesting to know what the Air Force does with Dr. Cahill’s expert report. They’re required under NEPA law to issue a clear and effective study on what their planes would do to our community and right now it looks like they don’t have that.

  64. Kevin, Information does seem supressed. How can the emissions level be changed: In the DEIS I noticed that the 100 tons for yearly PSD threshold has been changed for new major sources to 250 tons per year as an indicator of significance for attainment pollutant emissions. If they exceed these levels, further analysis was conducted to determine whether impacts were significant. The addition of 72 F-35 would increase annual NOx emissions within the Boise AGS airspace units by about 335 tons per year this would exceed the threshold of 250 tons but when they average it out over 1,560 miles of training routes and 5700 square mile of airspace. Once again they figure this would produce less than significant impacts on the NAAQS pollutant levels in the Boise AGS airspace. This valley already suffers from inversions so an additional 235 tons of emissions are just going to magically dissipate. For those better informed this information is BO3.3.2.2 Environmental Consequences.

  65. Rick, you questioned the assertion that the F-35s would fly 1,400 sorties per year using afterburner when the F-35s can normally take off without AB. The 1,400 AB sorties number comes directly from the Draft EIS, Table 2-6 “Representative Aircraft Sortie Information That Can Be Applied To F-35A Trainning Activities” under “Departures”, and Table 2-8 “Annual F-35A Sortie Projections” (72 plane scenario). Both these tables are on page 2-19 of the Draft Environmental Impact Statement Executive Summary. I was told this is part of the pilot training requirments which are based on the principal – “Train like you fight and fight like you train.” You can confirm the numbers by visiting the Air Force Website at http://WWW.F-35ATrainingEIS.com.

  66. I was in the Air Force stationed at Mountain Home AFB and can tell you the noise from these type of aircraft is nothing but objectionable. We don’t need F 35′s at Gowan Field. In fact, we don’t need Gowan Field. Those training aspects of the Army and Guard would be best served if move to Mountain Home AFB, and get them all out of Boise. The noise we had a couple of weeks ago from the F 35′s was just a slight example of what could be expected. Don’t allow them to come here. I agree the economic impact might be beneficial, but at what cost. Move them to MHAFB if they have to come to Idaho.

  67. decibel danny
    Mar 1, 2012, 10:15 am

    Monty is a classic example of a grumpy old fart who has nothing better to do in his retirement than complain about what isn’t right in the world around him. He has lived his 65+ years under the blanket of protection we call the United States military and will now proceed to question and complain about the method in which it will now be provided.

    Shame on you Monty! You can be more than the old fart you are waking up to everyday! You were created for more! Dear Lord! Don’t let me wake up 30 years from now with my picture on the front page of the statesman complaining about what isn’t right around me. I’ve lived directly in the flight path for 17 years now and I still get chills when I hear the sounds of freedom!!

    I have the perfect solution. We send Monty and everyone in his area who wants to complain about the noise and send them to live in Afganistan for one year. After a years time we send in the military to rescue all of them with the biggest baddest loudest jets we can find. I cam promise you that our boy Monty has never heard such a joyful sound!! As he fights back the tears in vain, he remembers the complaints and critisism of one year ago and cowers in a cave as he wonders whether or not he is even worthy of rescue. Monty is a blessed man. He lives and breathes under the stars and stripes in a beautiful area of this great nation. Look around you! Life is good! Some day soon, when he has seen the error of his ways, he will be walking outside to go to give volunteer service at the childrens cancer hospital when he hears a noise. it will get louder. But it will not annoy him like in days passed, for he is a changed man! Instead of going to city council meetings to fight against the sounds of freedom, he will be reading books to sick children or the elderly who have lost all of their loved ones and look forward to Monty’s visit everyday. And one day as he is sitting in his car in the hospital parking lot waiting to go inside, he will hear the sound of distant thunder approaching and it will remind him of the life of complaining that was not meant for him. for he is a changed man. We believe in you Monty. You can do it!!

    EDITOR NOTE–Eloquent or not, we don’t want personal attacks. The Anti F-35 folks have been civil and those wrapped in the flag should do the same. If you are in favor of the F-35 say so and don’t get personal. This post and editor comment shall serve as a warning to everyone to refrain from personal attacks, no matter how they are couched. Mr. Mericle has used his real name–something you apparently fear to do.

  68. Noisy Boise Homeowner
    Mar 1, 2012, 11:21 am

    We live over 6 miles from the airport but often wake up when a passenger jet flys over the house after 10p at night. These F35s are going to fly at night so I will need a fan going all night in my bedroom. (Good for Idaho Power Co.) Also the air quality will suffer when we have our frequent inversions in the summer because of forest fires (caused by few log sales on our federal lands). In the winter we will have more smog/fog inversions and snow that won’t melt because of these jets. In the winter we camp in the California desert in the flight path of Navy Jets and know how noisy they are. The quality of life in Boise will deminish but the news media and citizens are asleep at the wheel. I am glad I have mountain property to escape to if needed.

  69. No Jet Noise!
    Mar 1, 2012, 11:42 am

    @ dd,

    I have noting in common with Mr. M, and I hold the highest grade pilot license in the world. I agree with Mr. M on this noise and air pollution issue however, because he is correct. And he has been very courageous to stand up for what he believes in. No doubt many people who do not respect the rights of their brother who disagrees with them… no doubt many people have been foul with him. He is courageous to stand up for the rights of everyone who will lose freedom as a result of this failed idea.

    It sounds like you’ve been in the military? Do you recall way back when… do you recall the day you realized the military was the most wasteful backward screwed up organization you’d ever seen. Well dd, it still is.

    I find you may be short of facts and perhaps some hearing ability as well. The flightpath you live under has been a quiet one though for the 17 years you’ve been there in Boise. If they put these 72 planes here, you won’t need to light your BBQ to cook your chicken. And you might need to increase the flow rate on your oxygen tank too. The sound of freedom is really just the military industrial complex sucking us dry. It’s a big part of the reason why old age entitlements are going to be curtailed in the next few years. That’s our freedom going up in smoke with these wasteful Edsel-like like projects. So in a way you are correct, that really is the sound of freedom being burned up.

    I agree that a strong military is important, but we do not need to give up our freedom and quality of life to have a strong military. That’s why we built them the beautiful playground called MHAFB. They fought like wild dogs to have their training range a few years ago… they said it will not impact Boise or quality of life in the area. They lied. They lie a lot.

  70. Noisy Boise – If you’re so inclined, email your opinion about the F-35 coming to Boise to the Air Force before March 14th: David Martin, Air Force Contractor, and Kim Fornof aetc.a7cp.inbox@us.af.mil. Unlike the public hearings where we were restricted to three minutes per person, you can say as much as you want in your email to the Air Force.

    Also consider sending an F-35 Facts and Impacts flyer to folks you know: http://www.saveourvalleynow.org/F-35_Facts_and_Impacts_-_rev_8_1_.pdf. Ditto for Dr. Cahill’s indictment of the DEIS: http://www.saveourvalleynow.org/Expert_Report_by_Kevin_E_Cahill_-_DRAFT_-_02-26-12_1_.pdf. If you have a relationship with any of our elected officials ask them for their opinion on the F-35 coming to Boise and invite them to explain their position.

    If you have any friends or kin in Canada invite them to support the No Stealth Fighters movement March 3rd: http://www.ceasefire.ca/?p=10434&cpage=1#comment-6147 The Pentagon is counting on sales of the F-35 to allied air forces to help pay the astronomical bill for the project. Already there is growing alarm among these potential F-35 customers that the plane is wildly over-priced and chronically under-performing.

  71. Wow so anti military on here. I have worked around lots of pilots in my day….. not many of them know much about airplanes.

  72. MHAFB has been identified as a (possible) Operational base taking it off the list of proposed Training bases. Gowan is being studied as an F-35 Training base.

  73. Revenge is sweet! All the Vietnam Vets, who were public scorned and ridiculed and took the public anger, instead of the politicians, finally get to have their say, and rightfully so. (and we all know it) That was a shameful history of the American Public directed toward the individuals instead of the power behind them. They are now part and parcel to the manipulated band wagon rhetoric, which is exactly what the politicians are depending on. The absolutely, slanted and bias report by the Statesman, about Monty and saveourvalleynow.org, and the Statesman’s lack of reported facts was the perfect example of how to stir the pot, get neighbor against neighbor, all the while working behind the scenes to accomplish just what they intended. And as we all know, they have none of us included in their best interests. Not that it matters but I did attend all three meetings and read the grueling report that the AF presented. Our emotional responses don’t matter, they just scatter the fire and the target remains untouched. Typical political tactics and military strategy. And the public falls for it every time!

  74. If the F 35 gets stationed at Mt Home we will all get to hear it soon enough. I hope it doesn’t, not because of the noise or anything like that, I am a F15 guy I get a chill every time I hear one of the in the air and I hope they don’t leave Mt Home.

    Some of you are very antimilitary, your purgative, but just remember this, as long as you live free. That freedom given to you by the constitution has been paid for many times over by those who have served this country in the military and if it wasn’t for them you wouldn’t be enjoying those freedoms.

  75. No Jet Noise!
    Mar 1, 2012, 8:24 pm

    @ Rick: It is the loss of that freedom we are concerned about.

    It is leaving us as if we’ve consumed a strong purgative. It is what happens when a government stops respecting its people. We do not live as free as the day I was born, and it is getting worse. Some of the strongest evidence is the massive increase in spending directed at spying and policing within America. TSA junk-check anyone? (Coming to Wal-Mart stores soon.) Look around my friend, you may well be standing in the same place philosophically as many years ago, but your country has changed dramatically. Your individual rights mean less than ever before. It is the work of both political parties who fear restrictions on their uncontrollable spending addiction. This was able to happen because so many suffer from apathy, rigidity of thought, and failure to always question authority.

    That is my prerogative. ;)

  76. Couple of things I’d like to say. First, the video of the F-35 on final approach with the F-16 is awesome. It shows that two airplanes, the F-35 and F-16 landing together at an altitude of 200-300ft had a noise level of only 104db for 8 seconds or less. Any F-35′s flying up and down Boise streets would be at a minimum altitude of 1000ft, so 4-5 times the altitude of those aircraft. That altitude means lower noise levels (dbs) as reported in the EIS. If you chased a F-35 down the freeway without stopping for slow traffic or stop lights you may be able to keep it in sight for about 2 miles at best, never getting close enough to it to suffer hearing loss according to OSHA studies on db’s of time and proximity.
    I have lived in Boise by the airport for 32 years, near Victory and Maple Grove. I did that because when I moved here the F-4′s were at Gowen Field and I loved watching them and wanted to be close. Now, the traffic noise on Victory is far worse to me because it starts at 5:00am and does not slow down until after midnight, it’s constant. I can’t imagine telling people, like you are, that if one more loaded semi or Harley comes down Victory, making noise, I was going to sue the company that makes these trucks and bikes or hires them to be on my road. The way I look at it, if you have been concerned about the noise generated at the Boise Airport now is the perfect time to move, before the planes get here. Don’t be concerned about the thousands of military families moving in and out of Boise while they train that need homes because you’ll already be gone, we know no one would want your house because of the noise. Oh…how about those pilots that would like to live near the airport because of how easy it is to get to work…nah
    Second….Rick, you made my day my friend, Thank you for trying to calm the scared few and Thank you very much for your service. You rock!

  77. Lance

    Thank you very much, I tried but I have been told to cut it out.

    No Jet Noise.. I dont know what to say so I will say this, If you dont like it…. I will not respond to any more of your comments they seem to be designed to just insight.

    I will say this, in my opinion you are wrong plain and simple.

  78. Lance and Rick – I love watching the jets going over as much as the next guy. When a squadron of B1 Bombers flew into Boise one summer evening a couple of years ago my wife teased me when I ran out to watch. I happened to be on south Maple Grove once when a group of four A-10s banked sharply over West Jr. High to go in for a landing. That was a moment.

    Having a public conversation about the F-35 is a good thing. It’s one of the benefits of living in a democracy. I listened to a Russian journalist on NPR yesterday describe how Vladimir Putin systematically dismembered the free press in Russia when he came to power. Under that system we wouldn’t be sharing our opinions back and forth out the open like this. http://www.npr.org/2012/03/01/147653086/masha-gessen-how-vladimir-putin-rose-to-power

    It’s easy for all of us to project our hopes and concerns for the future onto the F-35. It is useful, however, to examine the experience of folks who actually live with the F-35. Unlike the city fathers of Boise and Tuscon, Arizona who are trying to attract the F-35 to their cities, the city fathers of Valparaiso, Florida took the Air Force to court because the noise of the jet was so intrusive. When you go to the Valparaiso website you’ll find a link where citizens can file noise complaints about the F-35. Hopefully it doesn’t come to that here in Boise.

  79. Jim DuFrain
    Mar 2, 2012, 12:10 pm

    Lance,

    You seem to forget that the figures you give are taken from airplanes LANDING when they are throttled back to lose airspeed. Go to the other end of the runway for a real test of their noise level. Quite different I can assure you!

  80. Jim Dufrain,

    You are forgetting that at point they are as low as they will ever be to the ground just before landing and they (as you could plainly hear) were throttling to reach the field. Anyone standing at the end of a runway with a db meter to use to compalin about noise levels is like sticking your head in a fireplace to see if it’s hot.

  81. Jim DuFrain
    Mar 3, 2012, 5:59 am

    Lance

    I’m not forgetting anything, just trying to give you my thoughts after 41 years of aircraft maintenance and engineering.

    Before assuming a landing profile the airplane is going far in excess of landing speed. They don’t slow to the 140 – 160 mph (a reasonable guess on the F-35) landing speed by throttling the engine up. They may have to slightly advance the throttle to maintain the glide path and keep from stalling but it would never be 100% engine power. During takeoff, that and burner on is where maximum noise is generated and it is for the length of the runway and until they reach climbout speed and throttle back with burner off that the maximum noise level decreases.

  82. Jim

    Never said it was full power, as a pilot I know what it takes to land a plane, everytime I take off I have to land. These planes are doing touch and goes from the look of it. They are also coming out of a hard turn at very low altitude which they don’t do with the power pulled back, right? You can clearly hear them throttling because of the distance to the airport.
    Bottom line here is that this is a whole lot to do about nothing. This plane isn’t the devil you want it to be. I want to be proud of what Boise has to offer, not ashamed. We have the opportunity to get the newest,hottest fighter in our countries inventory but there are those that can’t handle the idea of giving up anything to let that happen. It’s OK by me if we don’t get this great plane, problem is I don’t think Boise can handle much more walking backwards looking for what it is that’s going to keep us moving forward. I can’t believe that you would fight the very thing that could help us out. It’s not great, I realise that, but it’s something.
    I’m going to agree to disagree, I’m set, retired, own my home, happly married, have great toys to play with and enjoy sitting on my porch watching and listening to the planes fly over when I can. I work with all the veterans organizations in the valley and I’m doing something to help them. (PERSONAL COMMENT DELETED)

    I’m not going to continue to come to this site anymore because there is nothing you could say that makes any sense to the position you are taking on the F-35. In the long run this is a very small inconvenience at best.

  83. No Jet Noise!
    Mar 3, 2012, 6:49 pm

    @Lance: It is the video of the F-16 and the F-35 on short-final landing approach that you two are talking about? If so, these aircraft glide like a stone, so partial thrust is needed to get to the airport while maintaining a normal glide path. With gear and flaps extended it requires yet a little more thrust. Additionally, we always keep turbines spooled up when near the ground to prevent flameout and in case we need full power quickly, so drag brakes are used along with minimal thrust to give a safety buffer. Not even close to the power needed for T/O and climb though, as you know. Long story short, those two planes on the video are as quiet as they can be and a poor representation of the noise levels that will be produced by 50 takeoffs a day.

    Interesting how the F-35 is still louder that the F-16 in the video though… must be some kinda funky turns or radar screens in the intake giving it a bit more whistle.

    The little legacy airforce town in FL that is suing the USAF over excessive noise thought it would be a small inconvenience too, until they had to live it. They thought they knew what loud aircraft where prior to the F-35 also. We are just learning from their mistake.

    I would like to add that funding a pork project like this is more likely taking money away from veterans rather than helping them as you infer. It also will damage the local economy to a net negative (no more best place to live and work awards). It also damages the overall nation by funding a toy that we don’t need and is already falling short. The F-35 is a test aircraft that got pushed too far. That’s why these things are called pork projects even by the fattest people in DC.

    In comparison: Look up the origins and progress of the F-16, the most amazing thing we ever did overall, they got that project done right. The F-35 is plodding along much more like the F-111 and many other over-priced paper weights from our cold-war past.

    Editor: This post is getting very long, so nearly every angle of this thing has been covered already more than once. Thank you so much for doing what the media will not. So sad that Team Dave is still hiding.

  84. Lance, you said “The way I look at it, if you have been concerned about the noise generated at the Boise Airport now is the perfect time to move, before the planes get here.”

    What happens to those of us who cannot afford to move? How are we supposed to “move before the planes get here”? Please enlighten me on this one because I do not know anyone in their right mind who would buy a house that is valued at half of what the mortgage owed on it is. I blame that on me though, should have anticipated the value of my house to drop a full year after I bought it, and continue to drop every year since.

    Single income family with a daughter who has super sensitive ears. Was so happy that it was semi-quiet air traffic wise today. My daughter was able to get outside and play without wearing her hearing protection for most of the time. 3 year old wearing hearing protection, not something I like seeing, but sure beats watching her run around covering her ears screaming “TOO LOUD, TOO LOUD..”

    I am not anti-military. I am proud of my husband who served in Iraq, my cousin who served in the Gulf War, my uncle who served in Vietnam, and my Grandfather who served in World War 2.

    Had it not been for medical problems, I would be enlisted serving my country. I have many friends who are in the military, and have served in Iraq or Afghanistan.

    I am glad that people have fought for my freedoms and will continue to fight for my daughters freedom. One freedom I would love to see my daughter have is to be able to go outside and play without wearing hearing protection, or better yet, not having to wear hearing protection when she’s inside the house. Of course this is my fault, and I take full responsibility for buying a house close to the airport before my daughter was born so she would have a house to live in, a back yard to play in while growing up. I take full responsibility for my daughter having super sensitive ears, and having to wear hearing protection with our current military planes, and commercial jet liners. I just won’t stand by and watch them bring in F35′s, while my daughter will be the one who ends up suffering.

    No, I don’t want anyone’s sympathy, that’s not why I’m posting. I just want people to realize that there are people out there that will be affected no matter how small or large the change in db’s will be.

    While some people may think that the F-35′s are the greatest thing since sliced bread, I think that they really should not be located this close to the city of Boise.

  85. This discussion thread has discussed a lot of different things but no one has even talked about what the noise would actually do… What about the psychological implications? Losing sleep and being sleep deprived, increase noises tend to incur more aggression, concentration will be decreased along with the inability to focus on a task, risk of hearing impairment from excessive noise, scholastic performance will decrease, there are so many things that can result in excessive noise areas. This definitely needs to be addressed.

  86. You raise troubling issues, EHB. We do need data on noise pollution. Despite two public elementary schools being included in the 65 dB DNL noise contour Lieutenant Governor Little testified that we really need the economic benefit of an F-35 training base at the Boise airport. I was also struck by the number of veterans who testified against bringing the F-35 here because they’d lost some of their hearing in the military.

  87. This was taken from nwfdailynews.com Valparasio Fla’s paper. Sounds like the suit was settled with the AF, so now maybe we can get past the scare tactic being used here.

    Air Force, Val-P settle F-35 lawsuit (SETTLEMENT)
    March 01, 2010 4:34 PM http://www.nwfdailynews.com/articles/valparaiso-26362-air-force.html#ixzz1ogFHmChI

  88. No Jet Noise!
    Mar 9, 2012, 10:55 pm

    Boo! Many hard facts in this post which Rick agreed with:

    Noise will be louder than anything ever based at Boise, Volume of flights will be far more than anything ever based at Boise, Air pollution will likely become the largest source in Ada/Canyon county cause by the burning of about 15,000 gallons of fuel per day an the airport and upward of 100,000 gallons per day in flights near Boise. Economic damage turning many homes into scrap value overnight. Noise and fumes which will be experienced even in the northend and Meridian. Pilots from all over the world learning how to fly their new airplane over your house and school.

    You are correct Rick, I do fear these facts.

    The way to beat it is to have the EPA stop it because our air quality is often below par and similar to the LA area. Also get the FAA to mandate noise restrictive flight paths rather than the voluntary ones we have now. And vote out the Mayor for counting the money he would win without concern for the money lost to property values on the individual.

  89. Thanks for posting the story on the Valparaiso settlement, Rick. There’s no need to use Valparaiso’s experience with the F-35 as a scare tactic. As one of the only communities to actually deal with the F-35 so far their experience is instructive.

    It catches my eye, for instance, that Valparaiso didn’t get full noise data on the F-35 until they sued the Air Force under the Freedom of Information Act. Just as the Air Force was loath to share noise data with Valparaiso, so they’ve been less than forthcoming in the Boise and Tuscon DEIS. All we have so far are noise contour maps based on noise averages modeled in a computer simulation. It looks like they’ve studied the matter but they haven’t told us anything of substance.

  90. Kevin
    You are right, it is instructive, it tells me that the noise is not nearly as bad as you all are portraying. If it was that bad the city would not have settled they would have gone on with the suit.
    Jet noise,
    You don’t fear the facts, you skew them the way you feel will get the best response for your side. Go to Mt Home stand a mile away and listen you will hear the truth. None of you will do that because you don’t want to know the truth, I feel like Nicholson.
    I guess the biggest thing that bothers me about this whole argument as a Veteran is this you people live under the freedom that having a military provides you, yet you rail against those that allow you to have that very freedom. If those people who live on the bases can live with the noise then you can too, you are no more important than they are.
    You who compare Boise to LA remember what you told us when you moved here from cali. Were coming and if you don’t like it get out, we heard that a lot.

  91. No Jet Noise!
    Mar 10, 2012, 3:11 pm

    Valparasio, FL is a very small town which shares a boundary with the air base in question. They have very little money to fight. The agreement is a victory for the town because the USAF said it recognizes the noise from the F-35 is too much and will not use the runway nearest the town. You need to read the report you posted. David won the fight as best they could. At least they had town leadership on their team. Many of the residence of the Florida town suing the USAF, are veterans or active duty serving on the nearby base. The noise really is that bad Rick.

    Near the noise: Been there done that. Have made a lot of noise in fact. The F-15E at one mile away on takeoff is well above 65db. It is still too loud at 3 miles for a residential area. And that’s just one ship. How about a 4-ship formation launch. Of the chart ground shaking noise for miles. It’s why MHAFB is so far from town perhaps. Is it possible you have suffered hearing loss back in the day like everyone else on the flightline?

    I’ve met Jack Nicholson… Had him on my airplane. Rick you’re no Jack Nicholson.

    The military is needed and loved by me so long as they stay out of my back yard. They are one of the largest land owners in America, they can let me relax on my land in peace and quiet without compromising their readiness. I have willingly spent lots of money to buy them toys. They are not very responsible however and always want a better toy than the perfectly good ones they have now. Our future federal budgets will fix this habit for them. Unfortunately the military leadership has traditionally shorted the Veterans in favor of more toys. I will work to change that too.

    The air quality in Boise is still similar to LA. It has improved since the influx of Cali people. But that is mostly because I retired my burn-barrel stove and old Ford-N, not because of the Cali people.

  92. ok noise you win….and congrats on meeting Jack, played poker with him a couple times, nice enough guy..never said I was him.. btw what airline do you fly for?

  93. No Jet Noise!
    Mar 11, 2012, 2:51 pm

    Rick, The facts win.

    Why do you troll on here for people’s personal information? I’ve noticed this is the case with you on the probation posts as well. Kind of creepy. If you do not ask directly you state presumptions about posters which seem to be intended to cause the poster to reply with the corrected information. What are your intentions with the personal info you scape together?

  94. No Jet Noise!
    Mar 11, 2012, 2:59 pm

    Wow! This is so cool!! I just love it when stuff works.

    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/153623

  95. Today is the last day to submit comments to the Air Force on the F-35A Draft Environmental Impact Study. According to the Air Force all concerns will be addressed in the final EIS. Email or fax your comments to:

    David Martin, Air Force Contractor, and Kim Fornof

    HQ AETC/A7CPP

    266 F Street West, Bldg. 901

    Randolph AFB, TX 78150-4319

    Fax: 210-652-5649 Tel. 210-652-1961

    Email: aetc.a7cp.inbox@us.af.mil

  96. The Arizona Center for Law in the Public Interest has released its expert report on the F-35 Draft Environment Impact Statement. Citing incomplete data, wrong data and misleading data in the DEIS, the Arizona legal team gives the study a failing grade. A copy of the report is available online: http://www.scribd.com/doc/85470452/The-Arizona-Center-for-Law-in-the-Public-Interest-Slices-and-Dices-the-F-35A-DEIS

  97. Jim DuFrain
    Mar 30, 2012, 4:17 am

    I wrote the engine manufacturer long ago but did not receive any response until today.

    Hello Jim – To answer your question, the F-35 aircraft and engine are designed to not require a high power engine run after maintenance at the unit level. Therefore the type of engine trim operation the reader is asking about would not be required at the base level only at the depot level and in that case the run would be done in a hush house.

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