Will Boise Market Misery For Profit?

It looks like the squabble over who will run–and profit–from ambulance service in Boise is alive and well.

Boise firefighters have been quietly adding trained paramedics to their ranks for a couple years. On the face of it, a way to save lives and generally improve the level of emergency service to citizens.

Meanwhile, during the same period Ada County Emergency Medical Services lost a court battle with Kuna and other fire departments over a draconian ordinance aimed at making the County EMS the supreme authority and sole provider of ambulance service.

The court ruling opened the door for the dire departments to provide “transport” for victims of heart attacks, stroke, accident, and injury–a great revenue source for doctors and hospitals. That’s why there are so many helicopters flying around. There is a lot of money to be made treating misery and there is money to be made hauling the miserable.

Think of sick and injured as a commodity–something that can be bought, sold, or traded.

Boise firefighters union is always working on expanding the talent–and pay– of its members. Here is an entry from their website:

Some members of the committee made a site visit to Salem, Oregon to view their operations and contract with Rural Metro. We were able to ask and learn a lot about the public private partnership. It was very encouraging. We will be looking at many different companies and styles. We will continue to gather data and prepare a report for chief Doan. If you have any ideas or thoughts contact a Committee member.”

The GUARDIAN has contacted a couple of Boise City Councilors and they claim they haven’t really heard much about any dealings with “RURAL METRO.” A couple of sources who appear to be either Ada and/or Canyon Paramedics have tipped the GUARDIAN about Rural Metro, a Scottsdale, Arizona company and claim the firm is meeting (dealing?) with both Boise and Nampa officials in an effort to profit by hauling patients initially treated by the local firefighters–in lieu of the County EMS ambulances.

We figure Boise won’t be able to justify buying a fleet of ambulances, but if they can offer up a certain number of patients each month, RURAL METRO will make the investment to have exclusive rights to profit from Boise’s sick and injured. It may take legislative changes to make it happen, but the State EMS director is the wife of a Boise firefighter union member, so there will probably be some dinner conversations.

Such a move would threaten the existence of the Ada County EMS agency because they make most of their money off Boise residents–there are more of them. The unincorporated portions of the county–much of it Federal land–has no tax base, but people still get in accidents and suffer emergencies there.

Everyone who lives in Boise or any of the other cities also lives in Ada County and they will have to pay for a county ambulance service they don’t use–like they pay for the sheriff’s patrol, but all calls are handled by the city police.

Of course, if Rural Metro controlled the ambulance system in the cities, they could go anywhere as a private company. A private ambulance service might not be a BAD idea, but it has to be an open bidding process, not an insider trade as Boise is wont to do. If Boise can offer enough patients, you can bet someone will pay (franchise fee) to have the rights to their cash. Ada County Commishes should look Rural Metro and others before they get run out of business.


Comments & Discussion

Comments are closed for this post.

  1. What do I know
    Sep 21, 2008, 5:44 pm

    This concept is not an “insider trading” as you put it. Troy Hagen and the big wigs in ACEMS are fully aware of this and will be offered the same contract as anyone else, if it even comes to contracting for services. It will be interesting if Hagen and ACEMS will even work with the City of Boise. If history is any indication, probably not.

  2. After what we heard about the big bailout of Wall Street at taxpayer expense, where pray tell could the money come from for services under discussion here? Health insurance that might pay for such services will go down the tubes in the interim.

  3. The Boise Picayune
    Sep 21, 2008, 7:31 pm

    I have nothing but the greatest admiration and respect for Ada County Paramedics; but so long as a superlative Standard of Care is unrelentingly provided, I don’t care if Rocky and Bullwinkle are the ones scooping me up.

    However – While the bottom line is that the bottom line is indeed the bottom line… You get what you pay for.

  4. This is not about better and cheaper service. It is about franchise fees (aka kickbacks) the cities will get when they bail on the county program.

    People have short memories with respect to the ambulance business in the valley. Competing services would race one another to the scene of accidents and fight over who got to haul the victim to the hospital or morgue.

    There is no place for this to go but downhill should it erupts into a legal turf battle. Taxpayers will get the short end of this deal.

  5. This is timely for me. On Saturday I was wearing a new pair of jeans for the first time and was carrying a new, and expensive Kershaw pocket folder with a belt clasp. I slipped the clasp on my pocket and the knife in the pocket. I then slid in my keys and cut a BIG chunk out of a finger. The knife had partially opened in the pocket. I was bleeding all over and could not control the mess. My spouse called 911 and in under 2 minutes we had an officer at the door, VERY professional (once he found I had not knocked off my spouse and was in fact bleeding all over the front porch, he had the good grace not to laugh and provided a lot of good advice.) A minute later an ambulance arrived. They slowed the bleeding enough so that I could go to a local clinic for a more permanent solution. All told, a VERY classy and rapid response. I feel I would be amongst the survivors if I had an emergency and had those folk show up.

    So, here I type, with two fingers, shivering as a result of the reaction to the tetnus shot and vowing to NOT use that knife again…

  6. We have watched the ACEMS and the BFD fight over “turf” for the last 25 years, costing the city literally millions of dollars in duplicitous service, lawsuits, and changes in administrative direction. Private services have scratched and clawed to make a living on the leavings of these two agencies. Having BFD be the primary respondant makes sense, however, I have two questions.
    1- Who makes up this “committee”, and what allows them to negotiate with an out of state company?
    2- What about the existing private ambulance companies that are already here in Boise?

  7. Its not just about kickbacks, its about control and lack of transparency. If you look at the “Public Private Partnerships” in California, you often have a dysfunctional system that covers its own mistakes in the process.

    Simply put, If you are dependant on a city organization (i.e. the fire department)for revenue (via contract), are you really going to blow a whistle at shoddy medical care, poor attitudes/customer service, protocol violations, response time violations, and similar issues? If you are dependant on the fire service for revenues (because such services are awarded based on exclusive contracts, to be renewed every so often. And who helps pick the contracted provider???), then they , not the patient , are your customer.

    This not only sets up a dysfunctional system where, as one person put it, the bottom line is the bottom line….but also a dysfunctional system where there are no checks and balances. Contracts will not be awarded on who provides better care, who has the best protocols, who has better equipment, etc etc. It is awarded on who is more friendly and supportive of the Union. And that’s just the way the union wants it.

    This bodes poorly for the public at large, who will not have a choice in who comes to pick them up.

    This doesn’t even discuss the disadvantages of system status management response plans these privates use to keep overhead low.

    Nor does it discuss what happens when in 5 years or so , a private either goes belly up (like in the 70’s) or simply decides an area isn’t profitable and pulls out (wich has happened with AMR, and Rural/Metro Both). Who is left holding the bag then?

  8. Check out the June 2008 minutes at the following location:

    Interesting, complex, and disturbing effort to change state law to accomodate a few special interests.

    This new legislation, if passed, would seem to establish a new bureacracy and facilitate “privatization”.

    Also, for 30+ counties in Idaho it would seem to establish a new expensive unfunded mandate!

    “Can’t we all just get along?” Obviously not when a small group of people are more interested in their own agenda than the welfare of patients (or the expense to the taxpayer)!

  9. Excellent points Nemo. I wonder, as well, just what point we will be left holding that expensive bag of responsibility. Seems to me we should be promoting local services owned and operated by local providers!

  10. Rod,

    I read the document, and I took away the exact opposite from it. It seems it is indeed funded (through the EMSS formation similar tothe current Ambulance Taxing District it replaces today), and settles once and for all the “turf” battles.

    In addition, it gives more control to the local level of a given geo-political area to resolve legally the interest of competing agencies, like fire and EMS.

    And, most important, it provides mandated medical input into how a system is designed and operated.

    It is true that in any system, privatization is a possibility, but this does not creat the possibility more so than it is now, perhaps less so because SYSTEM needs must be considered, not a single agencies needs or wants. And certainly not because of the push from a few agencies with other agendas, like Nampa and Boise FDs, at the expense of those they oppose (like ACP and CCP).

    Not saying your wrong Rod, just that I read the document and took something completely different away from it.

  11. Rural-Metro started years ago as a Private Contract Fire Suppression Business (Fire for Hire). Their Fire side of the house has since went through bankruptsy snf re-organization and have lost many clients. So RM went into the ambulance business, they have expanded that side of the house but still aren’t up to par with FD run EMS Transport Services. Low Pay, Poor Working Conditions ect hasn’t helped RM Medical Services…it all for money in the pockets of the CEO, BOD’s, and Stockholders. Good Luck Boise.

  12. You are correct about the privatization part! It does not mandate it but creates an environment where it can easily happen. The new legislation would create another “bureacracy”, seperate from elected officials. i.e City Councils and Boards of Commissioners. Eerily like a “Redevelopement Agency”. Read “power to tax with less accountibility”.

    This new entity would be composed of a Mayor or City Council person, a Commishioner, and a Fire Chief. Maybe it has some merit or maybe it doesn’t. If cities, counties, fire departments, and EMS agencies can’t craft a solution now how will they do it under this new plan?

    One final thought. This appears to be an effort to solve issues in Canyon and Ada Counties. It is not good politics to solve two counties problems with state law that impacts 44 counties. Maybe the elected officials in the other 42 counties need to weigh in on this.

  13. I think it is amazing how mis-information becomes fact in such a short time.
    First of all, there is no conspiracy here – if you read a little closer, the City is simply exploring options, not doing insider trading! I believe the printed statement is “We will be looking at many different companies and styles. We will continue to gather data and prepare a report for chief Doan.” If/when the time comes, I’m sure, all private/county agencies will be able to bid. And from what I hear, Chief Doan has kept Troy H. and ACP in the loop from the very beginning.

    Second – the Public/Private partnership is actually a very good and effective system that has proven itself over and over again, ie: Vancouver, Tacoma, Salem, San Diego, Etc. The contracted service provider is under contract to provide the same level of care as is currently being provided. I don’t get where the county gets-off stating that other services are sub-standard! All Paramedics/EMT-I/EMT-Basics go to the same schools, take the same tests and are obligated (by law) to maintain the same skills and knowledge as every other provider out there. Who do you think RM will hire to run these ambulances? I don’t see them hiring a bunch of out-of-state, unfamiliar-with-the-area Medics and EMT’s.

    Also, RM or any-other service that is contracted here is simply that, under contract. Spelled-out is the minimum coverage/minimum staffing, maximum response times (with costly financial penalties), minimum certification qualifications for entry-level and on-going certification personnel, vehicle equipment standards, vehicle reliability standards (minimums on maintenance/maximums on age), etc. Yes, they do pay [the City] for the privilege of working here, but amazingly they do it for about half the cost to the patient (major sore spot with the county, I’m sure!) Another positive is that under a combined service, the initial response is only one vehicle (FD with EMT’s and paramedics) going lights and sirens(increased danger to the public and the responders) and the transport vehicle is traveling at normal speeds (non-code, no lights and sirens), unless it is a critical call or the initial response crew requests that the transport upgrade (to lights and sirens.) This is to save on public safety and crew safety – no more FD AND ambulance racing through town for a splinter! As for raising taxes, the FD is already here and operating and the contract company pays to be here – where is the tax increase?
    I have worked both the Fire-based EMS system and the Public/Private cooperative system and to tell you the truth, the Fire-based EMS system is by far the best system (no duplication, same level of EMS but with the added expertise that comes with the fix anything/do anything/know about everything/take care of anything expectations of the FD) but the Public/Private Partnership is a very effective system because it is supervised by one agency (FD), so whatever the City decides, the level of care and effectiveness of the response will only get better than the current divided/combative system we currently have.

    In response to the uninformed comments made about accountability and quality of service under FD/Contract provider, just sit through a QA/QI review with RM and you will not feel so negative about their level of care. I can’t say for the other privates out there, but RM is VERY strict about quality assurance, customer service, high accountability, and of course the bottom line, but you would expect that from any well-run business.

    There seems to be a consensus that something needs to be done about the current divided system that exists here as well as Canyon County (I hear).
    It is so frustrating that there can be so much lack of cooperation and unity between the services that are centered around and paid to work together for the public good. If the current players can’t ‘get along and play nice’, then things need to change, and quickly!

  14. My perspective on this is as a patient, not a politician. I have lived in Boise for a short time. Because my husband is very ill, we have already gotten to know the Ada County Paramedics very well at my home. I can tell you that they are a wonderful group of talented people who have helped us with everything from incontinence to cardiac arrest. My husband is alive today because these people provide great medical care. The Fire Department has also been helpful when we needed assistance helping him up off the floor or onto the ambulance gurney. They were much less interested and helpful when my husband had been incontinent because of his illness. The “joke” was made that the paramedics could handle this problem and the firemen simply walked away. I expect less from the firemen, because I know that they spend all of their time and training getting ready for the fires that never come. However, I hope they will not take away the paramedics who have always been there for us.
    We will be staying in Boise only as long as we have the kind of care that we have always gotten from the Ada Paramedics.

  15. First, let me say that if the PATIENTS and the TAXPAYERS are unhappy with their county ambulance services, it is absolutely their right to take that dissatisfaction to their county commissioners and make changes in their service or hire a new service. When it is the city fire department who is unhappy (primarily because there is a tax dollar somewhere in the universe that is not allocated to the fire department), they do not have the right to entertain “offers” from private companies to line their own pockets at the expense of taxpayers who don’t even know what is happening. This is the ultimate insult to the taxpaying public. We didn’t elect you and we don’t need you to go out and do the jobs of the people that we did elect. This is perhaps the greatest example of taxation without representation that I have ever seen.
    With regard to Rural Metro, you can certainly claim that it will benefit the fire departments to have them here. I don’t think it is very honest to claim that it will benefit the patients. If there is anyone who honestly believes that their healthcare needs are best served by a for-profit company from another state, please view a few of the following links regarding rural metro:

    This is a corporation that did not meet its contracted response times even one month last year in Knox County, TN. It was fined every single month of the year and this trend has continued throughout 2008. This included a man having a stroke who waited 48 minutes for an ambulance! Why are they not meeting their response times? It is cheaper to pay $220,000 in fines per year and default on your contract than it is to adequately staff that county.

    This is also a corporation that paid one million dollars last year to settle a billing fraud case with the federal government.

    Kurt, I am glad you are inspired by Rural Metro. I doubt you would leave your posh job at Boise Fire to work for them. Just don’t try to tell me that you are doing me any favors by hiring them to come here and let me lie on the floor for 48 minutes while I’m having my stroke and then send me a fraudulent bill.

    By the way, how many of my tax dollars have already been spent for BFD to “research” this brilliant plan?

  16. Several years ago Salt Lake City/SLC Fire changed their contracted ambulance/transport service from Gold Cross Ambulance to SouthWest Ambulance and guess who SW Ambulance’s parent company is?…RURAL-Metro. Gold Cross had the city contract for years then SouthWest came in. SLC Fire has their own Paramedics but on ENGINES and Squads. Their Paramedics go with the patient to the hospital is the medical situation dictates (ALS/Life Threatening Medical Emergency). SW Ambulance also has Paramedics on their first run ambulances but that also have several units ready with EMT-B (EMT-Basic) for non-emergency transports.

    June: Did you report that incident to Chief Doan?. I’m not doubting you, I wasn’t there but that conduct was totally inappropriate.

    Most Angencies that provide Fire/EMS/Rescue usually respond more than one piece of equipment on Medical calls. The dispatch center goes on what information as to the type of emergency and they’ll dispatch the nearest Engine and Ambulance, most times the Engine gets canceled or put back into service after the Ambulance Crew takes charge of the patient. Sometimes Firefighters from the Engine will go in with the ambulance providing extra personell (CPR/Sereous Trauma Levels).

  17. Kurt,

    A paramedic is not a paramedic is not a paramedic.

    ACP puts its Paramedics through a much more rigid selection, orientation, and training process than 90% of the services you will see out there, and it is a clinically orientated process. Is it perfect? No, but its far more progressive than most agencies, including our local FDs approach to paramedicine. Again, is it perfect? No. But its one of the best in the nation.

    And BTW, the standards for employment far exceed the minimum required to certify as an EMT or paramedic in this or any other state. That is why having your national registry only gets you the right to test (maybe if you pass lil things like background, etc), not get hired, not to work. This is much different from the private model. The State and National Registry sets the MINIMUMS…not the standard. Therefore the assumption that any state certified paramedic is good false.

    Not saying that ACP paramedics walk on water, but when it comes to medicine they walk in better prepared than most medics you will encounter nationally.

    That type of process takes $$$, the type of dollars and commitment that most privates, and many other models simply aren’t willing to dish out.

    The only thing you did get right is that in the public private partnership the FD is in control. Not the public, not the BOC…the FD (and by extension the Union).

    BTW, it seems to me that the thing that “Divided” this system to begin with was the FD….not ACP. God forbid ACP tries to put in place a an EMS SYSTEM???

  18. Joe Cleveland
    Sep 24, 2008, 8:23 am

    June you are a OUT OF LINE!

    You are an ada county employee who is trying to make the Fire Dept look bad. NO firefighter is going to go to a patients house and “joke” about his condition and then walk away. And as far as training for fires that never come, I must only assume you are really new to the area and haven’t heard about the sweetwater fire.
    Don’t get on here and write totally false statements. Even Nemo wouldn’t go that far!

  19. Warren Tyler
    Sep 24, 2008, 3:18 pm

    Boy, Joe C. You need to open your eyes and stop drinking your own (union) punch. I wouldn’t let a BFD fire-medic touch me with a ten foot pole. Now, Nampa is a different story Tom A. has taken the time and energy to make sure fire medics do the right thing for the patient.

  20. Nemo…ACP is no better trained/qualified than any other Paramedic Service is the state, they all follow the same criteria, you should know that since you are with ACP. I know numerous FD Paramedics I’ed put up to ACP any day of the week Training, Knowledge, Experience, and Qualifications.

  21. I call 911 first and then the taxi. Whoever gets to me first takes me to the hospital.

  22. Wow Nemo. Kind of interesting that those ACP that have applied for fire and failed the medical portion of the interview process were able to pass the ACP requirements, seems how ACP puts its Paramedics through a much more rigid selection, orientation, and training process than 90% of the services we’ll see out there. Maybe (NAME WITHHELD) was one of them.

    EDITOR NOTE–We cut the name because the writer libeled a person by name.

  23. I think Nemo is trying to pick himself up off the floor…Bam, Smack, Whap, Ooof. Wake up Nemo Wake Up.

  24. Sorry, I was up in the mountains. I dont live my life on the BG….

    Hmm, I am not aware of any of those who tried for BFD who failed the medical portion, in fact, is there really a medical portion? Last hiring I saw there wasnt. Not a real one. I am however aware of how some of our medics who went over there were treated because of their past affiliation with us….., including one medic who later went on to Lifeflight…so no debate as to that medics medical qualifications there……could’nt stand the anti-EMS mentality prevalant in your own agency.

    And if I wanted to drag actual names through the gutter, I could mention names with specific incidents…not that it would do any good. At least when our medics have issues we do what an agency should , review the problems, look for the root cause, and retrain..or boot. Not turn a blind eye. Not cover up.

    As I said, no program is perfect, and ours certainly isnt, but it is better medically than the farce BFD calls an FTO program. It serves the greater good not a union agenda. It has the practice of quality medicine as its prime directive, not advancement of the Union Job Retention. And when we have an issue, we address it honestly, and we do our best to fix it.

    I know of at least one medic on your side with NUMEROUS medical (not personality…not operational…MEDICAL CARE) complaints from our side to yours…your union protects him from anything that might “damage his job” , including reprimand, retraining, or de-authorization. Maybe thats why so many crappy medics want to be firefighters?

    BTW, BFD was offered assistance with the training of medics with FTO time, etc. They of course declined. Rumor was the Union didnt want union members to be “under” non union members such as what happens in an FTO-preceptee relationship.

    Yeah, thats the organization that we want running medical care in this county. Right.

    BTW Lisa, why are you standing up for them, its not likely your a FF and its not like the Fire service has an outstanding record on womans rights….. 🙂

  25. Jack,

    Even though your comment was made to be ironic, here is a thought provioking issue. In several studies, critical trauma patients did better with both BLS transport and TAXI service in both time to the ER and overall survival, than did those attended by Both ALS engine medics and ALS transport.

    Now this was in system(s) that have many issues, including PARAMEDIC OVERSATURATION (see a recurring theme???), but the point remains, the BS about needing a paramedic in the first 10 minutes for 90% of calls is just that..BS. BS and a waste of tax dollars.

    We DONT need paramedics on every fire engine. We dont need as many ALS Ambulances in this Valley as we have.

    We need a few select highly trained medics for ALS ambulances and a whole slew of BLS engines and BLS ambulances…and a SYSTEM (nto a single agency, a system) for them all to work under….

    …and even a whole slew of Taxis too…. 🙂

    Putting Medics on Engines is not just actually contributes to DECREASES in survival.

    So your comment was closer than you thought.


  26. Nemo…Welcome back I was worried about you. Now, do you have any documented facts concerning your statement about Paramedics on Engines contributes to decreasing survivablity? or is that your own biased opinionated survey?. Your statements concerning ACP didn’t have an factual backup before you got kicked in the nads.

  27. Nemo,

    How did you get that lame name anyways…Nemo? To scared to use your real name….we know it anyways!I’m afraid I would feel like kind of a sissy living in a Disneyland frame of mind….Cause your really in Fantasyland saying that having a Paramedic/Firefighter on and Engine decreases the survivabilty! Show us that Data Mr. cartoon fish!

  28. My comments are specifically related to paramedic overaturation, of which ALS engines in most systems (including this one if the IAFF has its way) are a proximate cause…follow so far or do I have to break out the crayons?

    Now I had written a specific and detailed reply, but I realized that anything that comes out of my mouth you wont belive.
    Nemo: “Lisa the sky is blue!”

    Lisa: “No its not, its IAFF Red!” (Ok, maybe in her world it is…)

    Anyway, here is an excellent summery that is written far better than I could…. Remember the corner stone of this argument is more paramedic equal poor outcomes. MY contention, and shared by this gentleman I suspect , that any system that does not triage and manage the paramedic to patient ratio, and the patient acuity of the patients the paramedic sees (Like the King County Medic One system does, a system with out ALS engines)contributes to this problem. The LEADING CAUSE OF PARAMEDIC Oversaturation…the topic of the article I posted below, is the ALS First response concept. See the connection to ALS first response now? Say it with me…More Paramedics..Bad. ALS engines equal an about 150% increase in paramedics per shift in Boise alone. How much “BAD” is that??? (too much)

    So here is the post, with the citations…the science so to speak…

    I would also point out the extensive research by Wang et al on intubation success rates and their relatioship to paramedic clinical exposure…which follows the same thoughts and would generally lead someone to the same conclusions. READ: ALS Engine deployment equal less high acuity clinical exposure.

    Also while not clinical evidence, this is an excellent news series in USA today that discusses many of the same issues. It has some excellent view of EMS in the fire service, and what bodes for Boise if BFD has its way (read a system like Washington DC or LAFD), instead of a unified system like ACP wants, like the Seattle system…something the union will never let happen. Too much non union influence fo for the union to be happy…

    and this Q/A session:

    I really like the statement from Stafford VA.

    As you can see this is hardly Nemo’s twisted lil mind working overtime.
    Nor is it a vendetta against the Fire Service. It is a crusade against crappy medical care, crappy paramedics, and the crappy politics that cause it.

    So Lisa, you will see my nuts are quite intact. Thank you.

  29. Lets see a Paramedic Engine and an Ambulance get dispatched to a cardiac arrest same time from different locations, the Engine arrives 2-3 minutes ahead of the Ambulance. FF/PM’s along with 2 FF’s start ALS procedures (Defib/IV/Intracardiac) vitals are restored and patient is breathing on his/her own…Bring in the gurney Ambulance Guys we have a live one!.

  30. Lisa…

    Defib is a BLS skill, not a paramedic skill. You dont need to ALS engines to Defib. Period. Educate yourself.

    NOONE does Intracardiac anything (except pericardial centisis and if your doing that in the first 5 minutes of a call your WRONG) anything in the field. Educate yourself

    If in your scenario, there was 2-3 minute gap, then the fire department should be doing BLS. Thats according to nationally recognized ACLS and CPR guidelines..and also of note: BLS care (CPR, Defib) is the only thing that hse been proven to save lives, not paramedic drugs, not paramedic ETT.

    So once again, educate yourself to the medical facts, the standard of proactice, the current guidelines….not what you read on the bathroom stall wall at the union house.

    Lisa, if you ever want to learn the medical/clinical reality of EMS, not the IAFF agenda, let me know. If you want to know what actually saves lives, let me know.

    Now back on does this relate to the rural metro debate…well…
    Rural Metro is a means to the end for BFD, the end is job security by deveoping a big red curtain over EMS in Boise, adding more medics to every engine, and ensuring their expansion goes unopposed and unsupervised.

  31. nemo…I’m not standing up for them (BFD). I just think that Paramedics in the Fire Service is a good a good idea. Personally I think the Boise FF Union has gone way to far on a lot of issues, dating back when you were probably learning what to do in in the back seat of your daddy’s car. I’m not impressed by ACEMS either from their management down to the line crews. That stunt Haggen tried with the county commisoners was a chicken s$*% ploy for him to retain control of county wide ems. And you Nemo whining and crying about BFD trying to take over, rehashing the old turf wars…Oh no the firemen are picking on us again. On the other hand I haven’t been impressed with BFD since John Boros passed away (Rest in Peace John, the bugle will always play).

    EDITOR–AND LISA GOT THE LAST WORD! This thread is closed.

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