Guardian readers should be familiar with the “Monorail” episode of “The Simpsons.” It’s a ripoff of “The Music Man,” except the smooth-talking con artist (not Harold Hill, but Lyle Lanley) is selling a monorail to the citizens of Springfield, instead of band instruments.

Lyle Lanley: Well, sir, there’s nothing on earth
Like a genuine,
Bona fide,
Electrified,
Six-car
Monorail!
What’d I say?
Ned Flanders: Monorail!
Lyle Lanley: What’s it called?
Patty & Selma: Monorail!
Lyle Lanley: That’s right! Monorail!
[crowd chants `Monorail’ softly and rhythmically]
Miss Hoover: I hear those things are awfully loud…
Lyle Lanley: It glides as softly as a cloud.
Apu: Is there a chance the track could bend?
Lyle Lanley: Not on your life, my Hindu friend.
Barney: What about us brain-dead slobs?
Lyle Lanley: You’ll be given cushy jobs.
Abe: Were you sent here by the devil?
Lyle Lanley: No, good sir, I’m on the level.
Wiggum: The ring came off my pudding can.
Lyle Lanley: Take my pen knife, my good man.
I swear it’s Springfield’s only choice…
Throw up your hands and raise your voice!
All: Monorail!
Lyle Lanley: What’s it called?
All: Monorail!
Lyle Lanley: Once again…
All: Monorail!
Marge: But Main Street’s still all cracked and broken…
Bart: Sorry, Mom, the mob has spoken!
All: Monorail!
Monorail!
Monorail!
[big finish]
Monorail!
Homer: Mono… D’oh!

I think the idea of a streetcar would be romantic. It would be a nice attraction to downtown. But I don’t think it should be subsidized by the taxpayers. If Team Dave, CCDC or ACHD wants this, let’s get it done at no cost to the taxpayers. The street bed could be licensed to a private company to build and operate a streetcar. The company would be able to charge actual users a reasonable fare. They could also make some additional cash with selling advertising space.

By the way I did see Bieter on his bike down at the Holiday Parade.

I disagree that we don’t have the masses of people necessary for transit. For about 20 years, early in the last century, we had a very good privately-run interurban rail system from Boise to Caldwell. Our population was only a few tens of thousands.

Sheer numbers of people mean nothing. You need compact urban design, with destinations reachable on foot and connected with pathways or sidewalks. Only downtowns, their original neighborhoods and maybe Hidden Springs have the kind of density and pedestrian amenities to support transit.

We don’t build cities like that any more. There are some tepid encouragements in all comprehensive plans to build like that but no cities are really forcing developers to do it. Buildings are routinely set far back from sidewalks, with yawning parking lots in front. That’s auto-oriented design. If you don’t have pedestrian design, rail transit will fail, regardless of population.

Busses will do a bit better in a modern city, since they are not bound to rails. Rails are archaic, remnants of a time when the only machines that could turn matter into motion weighed dozens of tons and there were no roads to move them and steel rails could be laid quickly and cheaply. That technology as been obsolete for more than 100 years, yet it persists where it does (rail freight) because of the immense capital investment and some fuel efficiency.

Meanwhile, millions are being spent on expanding West Ada County roads including a traffic circle to nowhere at Pine and Webb. Then there’s I 84 getting widened out to the far hinterlands. Oh I almost forgot, there’s that bridge way out ParkCenter too.

I don’t see anyone bashing those expenditures. Transit, one way or another, is funded by the public. Is a street car viable for downtown now or in the near future? Probably not, but…

I suggest a 6 month trial with one of those trolley looking buses doing a downtown loop every 10 minutes, for free. Like Ketchum.

Oh wait, the all-knowing state government gods haven’t given Boise a local option tax ability like Ketchum.

EDITOR NOTE– Cynic, we agree on the trial run. GUARDIAN suggested it months ago and Team Dave Ignored as they ahve everything we have offered. Check out some of the transportation stories on the link…most have POSITIVE suggestions.

Boise seems to be desperate to prove that it is just like a big city. Hey, San Francisco has trolleys. Why can’t we have trolleys?

Here is a suggestion that might get this monkey off the Mayor’s back. We can buy one (1) trolley, and run it up and down the hill in front of the depot. It won’t go anywhere, or solve any transportation problems, but, big deal. Neither will the Mayor’s plan.

Anyway. maybe we could just have this little token Trolley to Nowhere. It would be a cheap way to get this stupid rail concept out of the city’s system

My two cents:

“…when the economy is tanking…”
Streetcars are an excellent way to stimulate the local economy. The problem you raise is addressed by the actions of the City/CCDC.

“…wasteful spending…”
Is it wasteful? The Downtown Boise Mobility Study, which included in its recommendations streetcar implementation, was sponsored by the City of Boise, Valley Ride, CCDC, ACHD, BSU, ITD and COMPASS. That is a LOT of public representation saying that streetcar implementation is not wasteful but a good idea.

I don’t know how Bieter/Boston Locomotive bid issue or the Brent Coles thing even ties in to streetcars in downtown. Seems like drama and obfuscation to me. (Coles? Really? Maybe its time to let go and move on??)

“Team Dave wants to plant steel rails in the ACHD streets…” First, ACHD is merely the steward of the streets, the streets aren’t THEIRS. Again, the ACHD sponsored study recommended streetcars.

“encourage development” Yes, the acknowledged point of most modern streetcar systems is to not exclusively act as a people mover but to encourage development, which it is very, very good at.

“All that will do is cost taxpayers millions of dollars…” It will cost the taxpayers money but if its done right it shouldn’t cost them too much…a common strategy is to have the private sector step up. Give me a break, it’s the state capital…$$ SHOULD be spent on making it world class.

“…the economy is tanking…” The “bus route grid map” will do nothing to help this. Streetcars will.

A “trial run” with buses will do nothing to spur development and…hold on for the blasphemy…people would rather ride rails, NOT buses. It’s painful but true.

The grousing on this post & responses is because of $25k? No offense but there is some desperation for drama out there.

By the Bay: San Francisco needs restrooms, not trolleys. During my last visit a few
years ago, I came to realize I had never been in a more malodorous city. The smell
of human waste was everywhere because few businesses have restrooms and it is
maddening trying to find public restrooms.

San Francisco has the density to support rail transit. Boise’s downtown may, but
it’s not a big area and probably not worth the capital investment. Lots of bucks,
little bang.

Note to Watcher and your claim about, “That is a LOT of public representation . . ”

From your list of, “City of Boise, Valley Ride, CCDC, ACHD, BSU, ITD and COMPASS”, only the City of Boise and ACHD have elected managers.

That is a lot of agencies, but NOT a lot of public representation.

After a great deal of thought and contemplation, my company, Hookem, Playum, and Fleesem, has decided to accept the offer from Boise City and the CCDC to perform a comprehensive study of the feasiblity of a downtown fixed rail trolley system.
IT IS AN IDIOTIC IDEA THAT IS A COMPLETE WASTE OF MONEY AND TIME!!!!
Please remit check to our offices at your convenience and let me say, it has truly been a pleasure screwing… er I mean doing business with you!

If this recession turns into ‘The Greater Depression’, like I think it will, …and Dave Bieter spends hundreds of millions of our money to turn the downtown into a mini-Disneyland, then the Bicycling Bieter Boy is going to have to get an armored vehicle to get to Boise City Hall in one piece.

We need to keep people working and fed so that violent crime, theft, and street riots don’t become the new Boise norm. Maybe it’s time to throw ‘deer in the headlights Dave’ under the bus and install a new leader who can do something other than suck up to big business.

So, exactly what would people be using it for? It sort of sounds like the mini-Disneyland concept Tom is talking about? Yes, it would be super cute and fun. But, HOW will it encourage public transportation? Just because you ride on a trolley doesn’t really seem to equate to giving up your car. I think buses will still be needed. And, how would the trolley system be less complicated than the bus system that you say people don’t understand? Specifics please?

Cyclops, Good Question. I did a little research and found that in most cities with mass transit of the trolley, subway variety, the target walking distance was about 1,500 feet. Significantly, virtually all of Boise’s urban core is within 1500 feet of the grove.

In other words, if they want the first phase of the trolley system to serve downtown boise, they could simply park it at the grove. It would have nowhere to go because the city is too small to need a second stop!

Restaurants are pulling out of downtown Boise because the residents in that area cannot support them. Who wants to drive from Meridian to downtown Boise for dinner on a regular basis? A restaurant on Eagle Road is more convenient to the population. Downtown Boise will continue to collapse unless it can create something real to draw people there.

It would be a huge waste to spend money on a trolley or a light rail system without the draw of people. Salt Lake is struggling with some downtown malls, but some new shopping areas in downtown SLC appear to be doing well. Their light rail system appears to be pretty convenient, though I admit I’ve never used it. Phoenix has an impressive downtown, but the only draw there is professional baseball and basketball. They have large office towers, but not many restaurants. People drive to downtown Phoenix and are in and out easily. They now have a light rail system, but it only serves people living on the main corridors.

Mayor Bieter wants density and a pedestrian society. I ask, where are people going to work? What kind of downtown service industry jobs will pay them enough to live in the costly LEED certified buildings and have enough disposable income to sustain restaurants? What businesses want to be there when office space is some much less in surrounding communities?

Except for special events (BSU Football), I believe the current road situation is sufficient to handle our automotive needs in downtown Boise. Why tear up a perfectly good car-lane for a trolley? Even if the population of the Treasure Valley continues to increase, under the current Boise administration policy of mandating, controlling and taxing everything, businesses and people will continue their exodus into suburbia, thereby negating the need for more downtown transit options.

While participating recently in Rake-Up Boise, I took note of how many of the homes are occupied by sweet little old ladies on fixed incomes. What happens when they all pass away in the next decade or two? Who will fill their homes?…trendy-greenie-north-ender-types with money to restore the homes?…meth labs?…or will a thriving business environment return to the downtown inviting business people and their families to update those bungalows?

So, is there really anything we can do about this or are all just blowing words into the wind?

Rod in SE Boise: “Boise does not now nor ever will have the population size or density to support mass transit in any form.”

I take issue with that notion. A flexible bus system has been, and will be, very viable right here in little ol’ Boise, Idaho.

Any honest observer will see that some current bus routes consistently run full. (Others are near empty; that might be a hint that they are not very good routes.) The beauty of a bus system, as compared with a trolley – and The Guardian has discussed this at length – is that they ARE flexible. They can be fine tuned to meet current and future needs.

(A mass transit system will NEVER be self-supporting, in Boise or anywhere else. And until the feds or the state provides a funding option, we’re “blowing words into the wind.” Let the voters decide if they want to pay for better mass transit; when gas is $5 or $6, it’ll start looking attractive to a lot of people.)

Just think of all the “jobs” this project will create ripping up the streets, laying down the track, ripping up the streets to remove the track, and all the engineering costs. I

This is a pig without the perfume. I say OINK! OINK! pork the peasants will pay dearly for along the way to greatness.

Wow, you people are cranky. Are you all angry old white dudes?

I loved downtown, but I don’t think it needs a trolley. I want downtown to thrive. A trolley is not the answer. Ditto on Special Olympics.

Several points:

The busses I see are usually empty, except at commute times. Even then they are not full.

The bus system is still subsidized, is it not? If so, it is not paying its own way.

IF the auto makers can be forced to produce only hybrid, plug-in-hybrid, plug-in-electric, natural gas, bio-deisel, or ethanol powered vehicles AND if we can produce green electricity, AND if we can control our population size and density then the government will not have to force us at gunpoint to ride mass transit or live in communal housing. If we are smart enough, we will not have to live like cattle in a feedlot. Go rent “Soylent Green” and watch it again. It is more relevant than ever. It should scare us all in to some clear thinking, but I’m not all that hopeful.

“JIMV, the bad news is… I doubt there is a public bus system anywhere in the USA, or abroad, for that matter, that “makes money.” I challenge you to show me a bus system ANYWHERE that isn’t heavily subsidized by external revenue. So that cannot be the approprate measure of whether it “works.”

Do the highways work? They’re not making any money.”

The highways are essential and not a gimmick. The road system almost always pays for itself. Those places where it doesn’t are those where the legislature has raided highway funds for other priorities while wringing their hands about the lack of funds for their number one priority.

Look at Maine for instance…they steal hundreds of millions every year of ‘dedicated’ highway funds for the general fun as they can use that money to buy more votes elsewhere.

Bus systems are almst always a gimmick for buying votes.

So, Cyclops. What you are saying is that we are getting a freaking trolley. 🙁

JIMV, apparently you don’t get out much. On a worldwide scale, single occupant vehicle transportation is the exception, not the rule. People get from Point A to Point B either on their own power, or using public transportation of one form or another.

And it’s not just the impoverished; there are places – right here in the ol’ U S of A – where families don’t own a car because 1) they can get everywhere they go on the bus, subway, train, etc., and 2) a car is prohibitively expensive to park, operate, etc.

For people right here in Boise, the public transportation system, as week as it is, is “essential and not a gimmick.” And based on the trends I’ve observed over the last 5 years or so (fuel prices, cost of vehicle ownership, “green” pressure, pollution, economic trends, etc.), I boldly predict a gradual shift in that direction here in Treasure Valley, if the public transportation is there to support it.

The city will probably hire the outfit that runs the Boise Tour Train to run the trolley. Been on that lately?

“JIMV, apparently you don’t get out much. On a worldwide scale, single occupant vehicle transportation is the exception, not the rule. People get from Point A to Point B either on their own power, or using public transportation of one form or another.”

I have lived on three continents in 5 countries and have visited at least 50 others. You are right that public transport is the norm IN THE THIRD WORLD and in a very few big cities but in the industrial world outside of those big cities the overwhelming majority of transport is personal. In the USA the VAST majority of transport is personal. In Boise the number of miles traveled by folk in their own vehicles so far outreaches public travel as to make the later insignificant…except as far as cost goes. I do not have the figures but I would bet the cost per passenger in our cities public transport is far higher than the cost per mile per person for private transport.

On another topic…when I speak of ‘paid for’ concerning roads I mean that all road construction about everywhere is paid for with funds set aside for the purpose…gas taxes, registration fees, tolls, etc. It is when those sources of income are raided for other purposes that we have problems.

Put another way…when a politician after the budget as been approved says that we must have more money for roads (or any other project) because roads are our number one priority, what they are really saying is that they made decisions already to underfund roads and use that money for other projects which ARE of a higher priority….Roads are, by the action of the politicians actually the lowest priority as those politicians already voted for all the more important stuff.

Cyclops, ideally yes!

Practically, probably not.

In sort of a dark way, I agree with you Shane. In an ideal world, we would each have an anti-gravity “mover” That floated above the masses and was programmed to deliver us to our destination without delay or congestion. Unfortunately, the best we can come up with realistically, is a bus system that works.